1. What happened at the seminar? I thought I\'d have seen at least 1 or 2 comments by now, & at one pt. was even considering a request that it also be \"webcast\", even though I\'m not sure exactly what one is unless it includes live races on the internet. Of course, I had no idea I was behind a \"firewall\" either, & thought everybody gave cookies up for lent.
2. I have to renege on my promise to discuss the Fotias book on the ground that although it contains some interesting theories, it is not an appropriate topic for this Bd. For HP\'s benefit, I will mention that he quotes his late friend \"Charts\" as saying: \"The rarest of human qualities is an open mind.\"
3. The derby talk is interesting at times, but isn\'t this another situation where patience is underrated? There are quite a few major preps which have yet to be run, Treadhead, so don\'t start eliminating horses from your HQ at Beulah. In fact, if for some bizarre reason Pitt loses in Lex on Thurs., I don\'t see any reason why I can\'t consider your Request for Parole on the way home on Sat., which may or may not be a good thing re your chances of getting out of jail before serving your full term.
I think you are relatively new to TG. We have probably given 50 or more seminars over the years, although this is the first in about 3 years- we\'ve been concentrating on the web.
The seminar went very well, according to Stauffer and Bill Goldsmith. About 70 showed up, most of them serious handicappers. The Ragozin guys(Hardoon and Nebel)had a table set up a few yards away. They only had a few people, and abandoned the table after a few minutes. The highlight of the day(swear to God)was when Hardoon then came over to Stauffer and asked whether they could participate with us in a joint seminar. Stauffer politely declined.
Where and when was this??
Gulfstream, last Saturday morning.
Do you all ever put these on Tape?? of some sort.
No. If you haven\'t already heard it, there is an Intro Seminar available on this site, and ROTW is a seminar every week.
Jerry- I usually respect you and you are typically forthright, but you should tell everyone the true facts @ Gulfstream: Because of your relationship with Stauffer, TGraph was provided an air conditioned room and desks for the attendees, while the conditions for the Raggies were primitive, at best. I do not mind when you point out your advantages over your competitor, but in this case, your comments were a little illusory and misleading.
So you\'re saying that the Ragozin group can\'t arrange a seminar in the better facilities? The track is biased against them? We could have a nice chat about what the Raggies have been doing down there for years. One of those guys (I believe Nebel) was banned from the track for awhile. Why don\'t you ask them about it? HP
mitchell roth wrote:
>
> Jerry- I usually respect you and you are typically
> forthright, but you should tell everyone the true facts @
> Gulfstream: Because of your relationship with Stauffer,
> TGraph was provided an air conditioned room and desks for the
> attendees, while the conditions for the Raggies were
> primitive, at best. I do not mind when you point out your
> advantages over your competitor, but in this case, your
> comments were a little illusory and misleading.
TG--We got the air conditioned room because 1. We were the ones who initiated the idea for a seminar, and Ragozin and the others were invited in on our coattails, and 2. when Ragozin gives a SEMINAR, they charge for it. Gulfstream likes that we give away stuff for free to their customers, so Nebel and Hardoon were just given a table. It is also worth noting that Nebel is one of the Ragozin operatives we caught on tape telling potential customers we don\'t use ground loss in our figures. That\'s why their request was so nervy, and why you\'ll have a hard time getting any sympathy out of me.
How about an objective review of what happened at Gulfstream and the \"operatives\"? This is what I have heard and/or experienced.
#1 Thorograph asked to have a seminar.
#2 GP asked Ragozin if they wanted to have one also.
#3 Thorograph\'s operative (a Gulfstream Park employee, no less) gave their seminar in a comfortable location, while Ragozin might as well have brought a table and plopped it in the middle of the paddock. Even Jim Mazur had a better spot.
#4 Your assertion that Nebel was thrown off of Gulfstream is incorrect. He was caught on tape? Who are you? Linda Tripp? Too funny!!
#5 Another Thorograph operative, Jungle Jen Burke gives free thorograph ads in the midst of her job in exchange for free sheets. She was asked to cease this by the Marketing Guru, Dave Rovine, but continues, putting her job in jeopardy. Funny thing is, her picks are so bad that it is a deterrant to TG sales.
#6 Thorograph has been so desperate that it was selling 5 or 6 sets for the price of one and regularly loses money (on shipping, which they have to pay in cash) sending their sheets to South FL.
What happened to all the ads in the Daily Racing Form? Did the DRF finally wise up?
At the risk of being flamed by both sides, I have to pipe in here. Jerry, I know you consider me a Raggie, but I actually use your product more often now. ( I know, the rare animal that uses both products with confidence, strange concept around here.)
The main reasons I use your product more often is due to your company\'s markedly better customer service. I just couldn\'t bare waiting 5-6 hours to get sheets faxed to me in order to tie up my phone for 30-60mins any longer. Your online availabilty and attempts to continually improve your product-- though I still hate having the grid on the online product-- is to be commended.
I just hate this periodic harping against the big bad Raggies. I can honestly say that when I was a strict Ragozin user, I NEVER heard TG bad-mouthed. Now I\'m not so naive to think that it doesn\'t happen but it\'s hardly as wide-spread as you\'d have us believe. They are an arrogant bunch and honestly believe their numbers are substantially better. That\'s part of the reason they don\'t seem to give a hoot about customer service, let alone the competition.
If you\'d just focus upon what you bring that they don\'t-- superior customer service, online availabilty, additional features-- I think you\'d be better off. Defend your turf when necessary but this type of gratutious attack just makes you look petty.
Nevertheless, keep those great SoCAl numbers coming....
Then Nebel was booted at Calder. It was one or the other. He\'s a prize and you can have him either way. HP
You guys just never get tired of getting the crap kicked out of you in public.
1) Correct.
2) Correct. Someone associated with Ragozin(I can guess who)then told Alex Rodriguez, who was handling the whole thing for Gulfstream, that they would give a seminar too, for free, with Ragozin giving it. I told Alex that was extrememly unlikely, since they never have given a free seminar, and Ragozin never leaves New York. Sure enough, it turned out they weren\'t going to give a seminar, and Ragozin wasn\'t coming. He still gave them a table, despite the fact they were doing NOTHING for Gulfstream customers, only helping themselves. They also allowed Hardoon to give 5 days of handicapping get togethers, more than they deserved.
3) Stauffer gets free sheets from us, and occasionally gives a seminar. Harvey Pack got free sheets from Ragozin. Among the things he did--
a) Introduced Ragozin on air for 30 minutes, and replayed the show 3 times.
b) Banned anyone from mentioning Thoro-Graph on air(lots of his guests used our figures).
c) Banned Bill Finley, who had previously been a regular, for 2 years, because he was on the same show as me(Post Time). When Post Time went off the air, Pack allowed Bill back. He introduced him as follows: \"We\'re letting Bill Finley back on the show. He did something wrong, but I\'ve decided to forgive him.\"
d) In the Paddock Club at Saratoga, calling TG the \"cheap sheets\", and saying other derogatory things about us. I eventually threatened to sue, and Alan Gutterman of NYRA made Harvey stop.
As I pointed out above, the fact that Ragozin had a table in ANY location was more than they deserved, since they were doing NOTHING for Gulfstream or their customers.
4) As far as I know, Nebel has been barred from Florida tracks twice. Once was for trying to sell passes the track gave him to hand out free to big bettors. I don\'t remember what the other time was for, or which track, and it was a long time ago. It\'s always possible I remember that one wrong, but I don\'t think so.
As far as the taping- thank you for letting me bring that up again. As those who were on this site a year ago know, our lawyer sent a letter to Ragozin advising him that we were aware of several unfair business practices his employees were engaging in. We also sent along transcripts of conversations our Private Detective had(and taped)with Ragozin employees, in which they lied about us. We made the letter public, it created a big stink, and TO THIS DAY THE RAGOZIN OFFICE HAS NEVER RESPONDED.
You can draw your own conclusions. If you want we can post the lawyer\'s letter again, but if you have Ragozini\'s interests at heart I wouldn\'t advise it.
5) Jennifer Burke uses our data, and quotes from it when she discusses the races(see Harvey Pack, 3, above).
6) A few weeks ago we started a promotional campaign in Florida(and since then in New York and Chicago)where customers who bought a set of sheets for the primary track were getting a free copy of the simulcast book. Believe me, we weren\'t losing money. We began charging for the simulcast package in Florida after the seminar.
We pay for our shipping by check, same as your outfit. That \"cash\" claim is a perfect example of the Ragozin tactics, as detailed in the lawyer\'s letter. The DRF hosted our website until a couple of weeks ago. They were getting a big chunk of sales(high five figures last year)as part of the deal, and we were getting \"free\" advertising. They no longer host the site, and we buy ads when we need them. Like the ads we ran for the Gulfstream seminar, promoting a FREE event that benefitted Gulfstream and its customers. Did you see any Ragozin ads?
If you\'re gonna come to the hoop, bring some game.
Did you read Jim\'s post? Did you see our lawyer\'s letter? With all due respect(because you seem like a good guy), wake up.
Jerry,
I hardly think you kick the crap out of me. I will say that post was much closer to the truth than what you had previously put up above. I am not currently, nor have I ever been, an employee of Ragozin.
Your characterization of Nebel and his situation is/was incorrect. But hey, you are going to spin everything as negatively as possible so I won\'t get into it with you.
I never said you were losing money on your promotion. But you will admit that when you ship your sheets to FL during the summer, the sales do not cover the shipping quite often, won\'t you? Check/cash is the same thing as far as I\'m concerned. Are you saying that Ragozin doesn\'t have credit? Can you say you do?
You should get off the kick that you are trying to do something beneficial for Gulfstream and their patrons. That\'s a joke. As if you care. You did it to promote your product, plain and simple. Just be honest - I know I would certainly respect you a whole lot more. As it is....
\"Your characterization of Nebel and his situation is/was incorrect. But hey, you are going to spin everything as negatively as possible so I won\'t get into it with you.\"
Nebel was banned from the track(s). No spin is necessary. Why don\'t you have Friedman or Nebel elaborate on this on their site? I\'m sure they\'ll be able to explain it, especially if it was unjust.
If you put up anything on this over there they will take it down in two seconds. That\'s all the \'spin\' anybody needs. HP
HP
Pesonally, I don\'t know Friedman, and it\'s not my place to defend Nebel to you or anyone else on this board. My post was to address the spin on the facts about Gulfstream, their TG Operatives, and the Seminar.
Kind of funny that you think Ragozin\'s policy of not engaging in this sort of banter is a spin. Where I come from it\'s called taking the high road.
If it\'s not your place to defend Nebel, then don\'t. I said he was banned, you said he wasn\'t, Jerry said he was and now you say it\'s a \'mischaracterization\' and \'incorrect.\'
He was banned. Apparently the actions of the track\'s management mean nothing to you, and this doesn\'t reflect on Nebel or his employers. Whatever.
As for Ragozin\'s policy, are companies responsible for the actions of their employees or not? I think, to some extent, they are. There\'s plenty of law on the subject.
I guess I don\'t blame them for not talking about Nebel being banned. Companies are not usually in the habit of talking about their problems unless they are compelled to do so. I for one am not particularly inspired by dead silence in response to significant accusations, or companies that continue to employ people who can\'t seem to do their job without being thrown out of their place of business. But hey, whatever floats your boat.
If that\'s the \'high road\', you can have it. Good luck. HP
HP,
Sounds like you have a lot of issues there, bud. Breathe deeply, why are you getting so worked up? You and Jerry haven\'t proven that anything I have said is incorrect, so why beat yourself up?
Please show me where I said Nebel isn\'t banned at Calder? I said he isn\'t banned at Gulfstream. You keep trying, but you aren\'t going to twist my words. I said Jerry mischaracterized Nebel\'s situation and I stand by that. He was reinstated by Calder for the \"pass-selling\" misunderstanding and has no problem at Gulfstream (and never did at Hialeah).
You are correct about one thing - the actions of track management mean nothing to me. Just like when they threw the Thorograph product off of Calder a couple of years ago due to lack of sales. I didn\'t care - I have no vested interest here.
The better question is...why are you so bitter?
Thanks for your counseling. I feel better now.
Okay, Nebel was banned at Calder. Boy now I really feel stupid. You are some kind of rhetorical genius. Take a bow.
You\'re right, those poor Ragozin guys really got screwed down there. HP
By the way, what did Nebel \'misunderstand\'? Since you know so much about this. He didn\'t know he wasn\'t supposed to re-sell the passes? Is he slow? When you\'re given passes to something, you don\'t know they\'re not for sale? They give you passes and say \"here are some passes, if you can\'t use them, sell them and keep the money?\" You\'re sure nothing else was involved? I\'m not bitter, but this takes the cake.
Have you complained to Gulfstream about this whole grave injustice? Wouldn\'t that be the more appropriate forum for your remarks? Why don\'t you post on the Rag board? Wouldn\'t they be interested in rallying around the flag? On the high road? HP
HP,
I\'m glad you are feeling better. You are starting to come around now. The world is much less complicated when we deal in facts, isn\'t it?
Once again I\'ll tell you that my comments originally had nothing to do with Nebel, yet you seem to be stuck there. This guy must have really gotten under your skin. All you can do is produce slander and snide remarks about the guy. You aren\'t bitter? You fabricate scenarios that make him sound like a thief and call him slow - too funny! Like I said before, you have deep issues.
Yes, I do know the whole story, but it doesn\'t seem as if you do. Let\'s just see if you know the basics. How much did he alledgedly \"sell\" them for? Answer that and it will all come clear to you. If you can\'t answer it, then I know you are ignorant on the subject and just trying to spew venom.
Dude, lighten up, you\'ll live longer. I never characterized the Gulfstream Seminar as a grave injustice. I\'m not complaining to GP and I\'m not complaining here. All I did was try to correct some of the errors and misrepresentations above. You take these comments way too personal.
Life is good!
Jim,
You know, I almost was willing to let this go- but then I read it again, and you are just so disgustingly dishonest.
1- \"I am not currently, nor have I ever been, an employee of Ragozin.\" Yet, you claim to know our sales figures, the details regarding Rovine/Burke(which, as you know, resulted from Nebel\'s complaint), and parrot the party line regarding our supposed lack of financial health.
2- \"Your characterization of Nebel... is incorrect.\" He got barred for doing something dishonest. Straighten me out, and I don\'t mean splitting hairs about which track he got barred from.
3- \"I never said you were losing money on your promotion.\" No, you IMPLIED it, and said we did it out of desperation, which is a crock.
4- \"Check/Cash is the same thing as far as I\'m concerned.\" Then why bring it up? We both know why.
5- \"You should get off the kick that you are trying to do something beneficial for Gulfstream and their patrons.\" I\'m running a business, and as such recognize that giving value to the track, my customers, and potential customers, makes them all want to do business with me. I don\'t believe in charging people to learn how to use a commercial product. As such, the seminars become events that are good promotions for the tracks, and ultimately for us.
6- \"Just be honest- I know I would certainly respect you a whole lot more. As it is...\" You guys wonder why I\'m as angry at the Ragozin operation as I am? This guy either works for them, or has been fed this stuff by them- there is no third choice. And it goes on ALL THE TIME in the field- the only time they take the \"high road\" is when we are in a position to respond, and the only thing they will never do is compare products.
Jerry, Jerry, perhaps I can negotiate a 2 for 1 discount with the terapist for you and HP. Try this...close your eyes and repeat \"Serenity now!!\" every 5 seconds. Better?
In answer to your attacks:
1)I thought you knew this, but there are few secrets in the racing industry. I have many friends that are employees at many racetracks. I know several Sheet players. Call me a liar all you want, still doesn\'t make it true.
2)Follow your lackey HP\'s thread, the story is there.
3)Uh ok Jerry. If you say so. I was under the impression your product was thrown off the track at Calder year before last due to poor sales. I mean how bad is it when Lawton, who sells $10/day, is allowed to stay and your product got the hook?
4)The point is you HAVE to pay cash for shipping.
5)I call bs. You aren\'t doing anything for the GP patrons out of the goodness of your heart. You GAVE your product away to promote your product. Ragozin didn\'t because he doesn\'t have to (what did I imply there?) - end of story.
6)Once again, I don\'t work for them and never have. I just got fed up with bs and set you straight. Call me a liar again and we\'ll see who backs down when push comes to shove.
Come on Jerry, you aren\'t changing my mind, putting words in my mouth, or getting me to change the subject. I stand by everything I said in the post and you still have not refuted one word. Is offense really your best defense? Let me apologize for saying you are desperate, you obviously are very secure, lol.
I have purposely tried to stay away from bashing/slamming you, but you saying that I am dishonest is crossing the line. Keep it up and this discussion will take a nasty turn, count on it. Ragozin may take the high road, but I have no relationship with them so I don\'t have to. Your own customers (there are a couple on this thread) tire of your rants against Ragozin - grow up already.
The lackey chimes in -
You\'re right, I apologize, Nebel must have been barred for doing something good. No reflection on Ragozin. Thanks for clearing this up.
Gee I\'ve never heard of a company giving away its products in a promotion. Marketing must be another field of expertise for you.
I can afford my own therapist, thanks. I\'ll have to let Jerry handle your emailed threats. I\'ll bow out, before your nasty turn. I have heart trouble.
Hey lighten up, dude! You\'re taking it all too seriously. No one\'s mind is in danger of changing here. HP
Jim-
To quote Peter O\'Toole(Henry II?)in \"A Lion In Winter\", \"I\'ve won. Surely you noticed.\"
When we started this site, one of my stated aims was to bring guys like you out from under the rocks and into the open, where both the methods and false accusations of the Raggies would be clear, and the B.S. refuted. In your case we have the added bonus of seeing the breathtaking contempt you have for the intelligence of those following the \"debate\"- attempts at slippery, Clintonesque(and not even well done)hair splitting(it matters at which track Nebel got banned?).
In any event, we don\'t pay cash for shipping, not that it would mean anything regarding the value of the product if we did. A long time(8-10 years)ago we did have to, when the company was shaky. We do almost all our business with UPS on the same basis Ragozin does his with FedEx. We do a few packages a week with FedEx, and pay by check. Discussion of this subject says alot more about you, Nebel and the other Raggies than it does about us.
You asked HP if he knew how much Nebel was selling those passes for. Answer- enough to get his ass thrown off track.
Too funny.
Incidentally, are there terapists outside Maryland?
Yeah, HP, you are right.
You are dragging me down to your\'s and Jerry\'s level and it could start getting ugly. My emailed threats? LOL, very funny! I think \"Serenity now!!\" will work for you too.
Now, I need to get back on that high road and ignore the attacks on my character. That is, unless Jerry wants to call me a liar again, without a shred of proof I might ad.
PS Your implication that Nebel can\'t do his job is also incorrect. He goes to Calder daily - guess he wasn\'t totally barred, was he? I guess you really don\'t know much of anything after all. I do pity you.
Jerry,
I like how you pick one or two things from my factual replies and try to slide past them but you have done nothing but proven my points. Why exactly did you have to pay cash?
It mattered which track because you were wrong. I know that you would like to me to pass over everything you post incorrectly, but I\'m not going to. Once I again I tell you that Nebel was reinstated for the pass \"misunderstanding\". (doesn\'t seem to sink in with you guys for some reason though)
Seems you have completely gotten off my original points about Gulfstream, the seminar, and the ThoroGraph Operatives (talk about questionable characters). A victory for me since you didn\'t say I wrong about any of them...what you don\'t say says a lot more about you that what you are saying.
Banned! From the track! And then reinstated! How big is that on a resume? He must be some kind of wizard to work there every day now. Must be a tough job, having to figure out what to do with freebies. I know I couldn\'t do it. Ragozin must be raking it in if Nebel has to sell passes. O I\'m sorry, he wasn\'t selling them and it was all a misunderstanding. I wish I knew the whole story! I\'m sure nothing else was involved and based on that simple misunderstanding they banned him. You are some kind of insider. It\'s a good thing they worked that out, so now he has a job.
Maybe you know the answer to this; was there some kind of memo circulated at Ragozin after this episode to give their employees guidance on how not to get banned? Or have they managed to figure that out on their own? How about a memo on arranging seminars, since that\'s so tough down there? I mean with all the TG operatives (working for a company that\'s been going broke for awhile) running everything. Come on, let\'s keep talking about this, please! HP
Jim-
I have a lot higher opinion of readers here than you do- I\'ll let this go unanswered. Thank you, and don\'t be a stranger.
HP, I have a pretty good idea of what Billy G and Nebel make and I\'d much rather have Nebel\'s salary. Asied from what they make, from what I know of Nebel, he\'s a millionaire and doesn\'t give a flying whoop what people think of him - least of all you.
Jerry, smart move, good luck to you. Believe it or not, I have never bad-mouthed you or your product at the track. Hopefully we can discuss something less controversial next time.
I\'m glad Nebel is rich and I understand he doesn\'t care what I think. More power to him. You, however, have seen fit to respond many times. I guess us lackeys should stick together. HP
Good one HP!!! There\'s hope for you yet.
Peace.
Jim,
When I went to Turkey on vacation I was a millionaire too for a little while (in Turkish Liras of course). I think I met a few Nebels there too. Not that I would dare think you would omit any relevant details in the interest of brevity (was it Calder or Gulfstream, I\'ve forgotten again).
P.S. I don\'t disagree with the jist of your messages, but you\'d have to agree that as long as you\'re on this board, you\'re gonna get some stick.
Jerry,
Sorry for the late response, I\'m back to a weekend player for a few months and haven\'t had time to read the board.
No I didn\'t read Jim\'s post-- or at least not all the way through. My points were in regard to the original post where the thread started. That\'s where you or someone from TG talked about the seminar and made it a point to bad-mouth Ragozin.
All I\'m saying is you could have skipped that part, talked about how well it went for you guys etc. I\'m just suggesting that you take the high road, that\'s all.
I\'ve been turned around on TG because of the quality of the product and your customer service. Letters from laywers, he-said, he said arguments, anti-ragozin diatribes etc. have all had nothing to do with it and I doubt I\'m much different than most people.
You\'re dealing with a pretty small niche market for these type of figures-- it takes a real commitment to learn how to use them effectively and few horse-players are willing to put in the time to do so-- and I just think you\'d be better offer focusing upon the postives.
The way I look at it, the ragozin boys unwillingness to provide even DECENT customer service will undoubtably be their deathnell eventually and IMHO, you\'re much more likely to pick up their disgruntled users if you accent the postives of your product and stay out of the fray as much as a possible.
It\'s just a suggestion based entirely on selfish reasons. I want to make sure one of you is still standing in 5, 10, 15, 20 years and I just think TG is more likely to be that company.
AT wrote:
>
> Jerry,
>
> Sorry for the late response, I\'m back to a weekend player for
> a few months and haven\'t had time to read the board.
>
> No I didn\'t read Jim\'s post-- or at least not all the way
> through. My points were in regard to the original post where
> the thread started. That\'s where you or someone from TG
> talked about the seminar and made it a point to bad-mouth
> Ragozin.
>
> All I\'m saying is you could have skipped that part, talked
> about how well it went for you guys etc. I\'m just suggesting
> that you take the high road, that\'s all.
>
> I\'ve been turned around on TG because of the quality of the
> product and your customer service. Letters from laywers,
> he-said, he said arguments, anti-ragozin diatribes etc. have
> all had nothing to do with it and I doubt I\'m much different
> than most people.
>
> You\'re dealing with a pretty small niche market for these
> type of figures-- it takes a real commitment to learn how to
> use them effectively and few horse-players are willing to put
> in the time to do so-- and I just think you\'d be better offer
> focusing upon the postives.
>
> The way I look at it, the ragozin boys unwillingness to
> provide even DECENT customer service will undoubtably be
> their deathnell eventually and IMHO, you\'re much more likely
> to pick up their disgruntled users if you accent the postives
> of your product and stay out of the fray as much as a possible.
>
>
> It\'s just a suggestion based entirely on selfish reasons. I
> want to make sure one of you is still standing in 5, 10, 15,
> 20 years and I just think TG is more likely to be that company.
TG--I make no promises, but I hear you. Sometimes it\'s not a business decision--as Butch Lenzini said when one of his horses lost at 1-5, \"it just goeos to show my horse is human\".