In the major venues where synthetic racing surfaces have been installed
(basically Keeneland, Woodbine, and the 3 major California tracks), synthetic
surfaces have replaced traditional dirt surfaces.
Given the size of the two downstate New York facilities, the opportunity exists
to install a synthetic surface which will be used IN ADDITION TO a traditional
dirt surface.
Imagine a nine race card which featured 3 turf races,3 dirt races and 3
synthetic races. Imagine the games trainers could play moving animals back and
forth from one surface to the other.
Synthetic is here to stay. Horseplayers and trainers will adapt to synthetic
quirks. The synthetic database or profile grows with each day of racing.
Horseplayers and trainers will learn the differences in the synthetic surfaces
at the various venues.
As FKach says, the breeding business will have to deal with
uncertainty, but it is hard for me to really feel sorry for thoroughbred
breeders who have made more money than anyone else in the game in the last
quarter century.
Dirt and synthetic side by side. It might be one advantage NY racing might have
over other venues in the near future.
That sounds really interesting. I guess the main problem would be space -- where would the dirt, synthetic, and turf courses all fit? They could certainly do it at larger tracks. I think it\'s a brilliant idea, and I don\' know why we haven\'t heard this more in the racing media.
Personally, I don\'t know why they just don\'t have synthetic training tracks all over the place and just have them race on dirt. Sounds simpler than an instant conversion to all synthetic everywhere like in California.
What you really want to do to draw in the attention deficit crowd, is run all 3 simultaneously, Turf, Dirt, Syn.
No waiting an hour to see if you\'ve hit the P3.
For syndicates we will offer a Three WAy/ Trifecta, on those same events. Pick Em, 123 - 123 - 123 on one ticket.
Yeah.
Richiebee,
I am surprised at your post. Synthetic surfaces on top of the other two? Have you been betting the synthetic tracks? Keenland was ridiculous. For most of that meet, the wider you were, the further back you were, the better your chance of winning. Hollywood played similarly early on, then speed got better later in the meet. Woodbine is unpredictable. Many \"shrew bettors\" (not an oxymoron) I know are not betting any synthetic tracks. Did you catch Delmar last week? I saw more rerallies by tired horses in 3 days than I had seen in the last 30 days.
I for one, refuse to bet any synthetic tracks. I only hope that others do the same and if the handle goes down, maybe the tracks think harder about making synthetic tracks the standard. Are they really that much safer?
More anti poly propaganda....and so it goes.
Think this article by Jeremy Plonk of Horseplayer Magazine offers a different point of view.
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?columnist=plonk_jeremy&id=2942342
NC Tony
NC Tony
Unfair, you can tell the guy is cluless.Ask him how many \'WHALES\" or serious bettors(pros) he interviewed, the answer is none because they are mostly under the radar. Let me give you a hint, I know many, they would rather give the money to charity than bet big on horses staggering/swerving thru the lane on a slow exhausting garbage surface like the Del Mar Poly.Just another viewpoint.
The financial health of the bettors is at least equal(more,imo) to the well being of the horses and a more middle ground(so to speak) must be found.
Mike
Jimbo:
I am not a big proponent of the synthetic surface, but am realistic enough
to see the proverbial writing on the wall. I am just hoping that when Polymania
comes to the NY tracks, the powers that be take advantage of the size of the
downstate facilities and retain the traditional dirt surfaces.
Personally I am most active during the Fair Grounds meet and frankly I am
afraid that the Churchill people will soon be announcing that FG, which has
very wet winters, will be going synthetic.
It is probably too early to tell if synthetic is safer, and I am sure
time will prove that some of the synthetic surfaces are safer than others. And
as time goes on, racetrack management will learn how to \"soup up\" a synthetic
surface to produce fast times on a day which features big races and how to make
it less glib when trainers and owners complain that their animals are coming
back \"ouchy\".
Here are the reasons why synthetic is here to stay, whether certain
horseplayers like it or not:
1) Dilution of the thoroughbred gene pool, resulting in a less sound
thoroughbred population;
2) Fewer and fewer true horsemen in the game able to hold horses together;
3) There is less maintenance (and thus less expense) involved with
synthetic;
4) The weatherproof nature of synthetic makes for larger fields on days
when tracks used to lose many runners to weather related scratches; and
5) A large portion of the wagering population is not quite as discerning
as the average TG board poster/ TG info user in that the surface doesn\'t matter
so long as the action is there.
The hardboot purists in Kentucky seemed to support synthetic at Keeneland and
when the sad day comes that the first Kentucky Derby and first Breeders Cup Day
are run over synthetic these wildly popular events will lose none of their
luster or prestige.
Jimbo you are a smart young man and you will learn how to adapt and pick
your spots, if you haven\'t already. Recently in NY, as I am sure you know, dirt
racing has almost become a novelty the way turf racing used to be.
Recently my favorite surface has been the lush green fairways of some of
the local golf courses. I will however take a couple of days off from \"hacking
and whacking\" this weekend to attend the races at the greatest summer resort
racing meet which still runs on dirt.
That is waaaaaaaaaayyyyy to funny...Boscar...As for the polyquack surface at DMR - I hate it! Southern-Cal racing use to be so beautiful - find the best horse...go to the lead...back the Brinks truck up and do it all over again the next day.
Unfortunately with all the switch to polyquack surface in Cali, I have no choice but to seek refuge in the Midwest come this winter. GP is another track that was sooooooo beautiful until MAGNA ruin it.
I am so freaking looking forward to Saratoga - I just hope NYRA stop carding NY DREAD races as if it\'s NY showcase-day everyday, and eliminate those MD CLM races on the turf - save them for downstate.
colt Wrote:
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>As for the polyquack surface at DMR - I hate it!
> Southern-Cal racing use to be so beautiful - find
> the best horse...go to the lead...back the Brinks
> truck up and do it all over again the next day.
I find it a little amusing that people are blasting Polytrack, yet some feel \"beautiful\" racing is watching 1 speedball after another go wire to wire. As a longtine California fan, I found this more than a little boring.....and I doubt you were backing up the Brinks truck daily Colt.
In regards to Miffs\' staggering home comments, thats a little dramatic. Miff, do you think 10K claimers running 1.08/1.09 and change is a good thing?? Why.....because the track is carrying them home the last 1/8 when by all rights they should be staggering home??
My buddies and I flew in for the first week of Del Mar. Using TG, we didn\'t have any problems picking winners (BTW, Vauquelin was a gift opening day..thanks JB). I didn\'t mind the new surface at all. I liked looking for horses that didn\'t have to be speedballs. As for horses staggering home....those horses weren\'t good enough to finish. If you were referring to winners staggering home...maybe frontrunners were getting a little tired (Sneaky Jack was a painful loss Friday) but winners were not staggering home. The track was slower, not the horses. I had a successful week at Del MAr by picking my spots with TG and jumping in.
Synthetic surfaces are here to stay. Instead of whining and moaning about it, adapt and find a way to win.
Paul,
Bottom line. It\'s a garbage surface robbing brilliantly fast horses of their speed, PERIOD!and no data in the world is going to help handicapping horses staggering home in 27 seconds, and not only the 10k claimers.
Mike
Miff,
The leaders may be stagering home, but those coming from somewhere off the pace may be flying home. Why is one style better than the other. Please explain that?
Why does jumping out first and getting out to the lead and plays catch me if you can better than the entire field sprinting home aka Europe Turf?. All that matters in betting is picking who crosses the line first(second/third etc). It doesn\'t really matter how they got their (in the end) (it actually does as to how you handicap the race but save that for another day).
Maybe from a pure sporting point of view (without wagering), the surface may be an issue. Why not let them run on natural ground vs the made up dirt of loam,sand,and other ingredients shipped into the so called \"real dirt\" or \"Un-Natural\" surfaces that are being used today. And weren\'t we all bitching about the \"souped up\" dirt surface at CD for the Breeders Cup?
I think we all speak out of both sides of our mouths only to make \"our Point\".
I for one have accepted and moved on.
I choose to say deal with it. You do have a choice of where to play or wager in 2007 and on into the future providing the Horse Racing still exisits. I guess your gripe is that quality racing circuits have been mostly switching to poly leaving you with NYRA (for now) /CT/LRL/PEN/PHA/PIM/SUF/CRC/GP/HAW/MTR I doubt I have to mention Yavapai.....
I just think this coversation is passe\'. Time to move on.
NC TONY
PS Enjoy Saratoga this weekend. I will be there.
Tony,
Last post. Don\'t know what races you have been watching but NO horses are FLYING home at Del Mar.Raw times are 2-3 seconds off norm, thats 10 to 15 lengths in a game often decided by a nose.Running styles aside, you can time the races with a sun dial and thats NOT racing.
You guys that QUOTE \"like it\" don\'t even know why, except for the animal loons that have more regard for the horses than the bettors, I DON\'T!!
Good Luck,
Mike
Richiebee,
Glad to hear you are taking a break from the \"hacking and whacking\" to be at Saratoga. I will be there this weekend as well. From Friday to at least Sunday, maybe Monday. I will be at the Carolina Barbecue where the Tgraph seminar is on Saturday and Sunday. Hopefully will see you there.
Your points on poly are noted and I guess I am swimming upstream, but as long as there are dirt tracks, those tracks will get my action, not the poly tracks.
When no dirt tracks are left, maybe I will take up golf......
Sorry, I have to add one more post as well. If horses were running to form on the poly, then so be it, it wouldn\'t matter to this bettor whether the final time was 1:08 or 1:14 for 6 furlongs. Hell, if you look at some of Jerry\'s older posts about \"are race horses getting faster\", you have to admit that you can at least make a very good case that final times are controlled by track cushion on dirt tracks.
But from what this bettor has seen, the races are not formful and I don\'t think the figures are holding up as well. People can disagree with that and I guess since P-Dub cashed a few tickets last week at Delmar, so he is a fan of it. But from what I saw, particularly at Keenland, the races were farcical at times. At one point something like 3 out of 90 races were won from the front. I don\'t want races to be \"wire to wire\" all the time, no serious Thorograph player would, since speed biased tracks don\'t produce formful results either (look at the old Keenland speed highway), but 3 out of 90 is not right. When the horses that go to the lead and run slow paces and save all the ground, get passed by horses with inferior figures that are also 8 wide on the final turn, then results are not normal.
Ok, I shut up now. Thank god there is no talk of Saratoga going to Poly.
Jimbo:
If the day ever comes, I think you will find golf every bit as
aggravating/gratifying as the \"sport of kings\". And golf is a pursuit
that a father and son can enjoy together for years and years.
My final observation on synthetic is that the opening week of Del Mar featured
3 $100 plus mutuels all on the synthetic surface. I am fairly certain, without
doing the research, that there were entire meets at Del Mar where there weren\'t
3 $100 winners.
I wouldn\'t be surprised if even the poly proponents such as P-Dub are treading
lightly, waiting to see a larger sample.
Hoping for good weather and great racing this weekend
Del Mar
Monday had a chance to stop work early. Went to the meadowlands and bought the sheets for DelMar The from on those races were right on at least Monday.
The payout were very generious based upon the odds.
I have not been a fan of poly but maybe just maybe .
look at the numbers for monday do the numbers and make a graph who has a chance to win. again the numbers were right on
jimbo66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> But from what this bettor has seen, the races are
> not formful and I don\'t think the figures are
> holding up as well. People can disagree with that
> and I guess since P-Dub cashed a few tickets last
> week at Delmar, so he is a fan of it.
Jimbo,
I am not a fan of it. Richie pointed out several reasons its probably here to stay. I\'m not going to stop playing the tracks I\'ve played all my life because of the surface changes. I\'m going to adapt and try to figure out a way to be successful. I had success last week using the data, as did another poster on this board. Did you take the time to Redboard the races from Del MAr last week??
richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> My final observation on synthetic is that the
> opening week of Del Mar featured
> 3 $100 plus mutuels all on the synthetic surface.
> I am fairly certain, without
> doing the research, that there were entire meets
> at Del Mar where there weren\'t
> 3 $100 winners.
>
> I wouldn\'t be surprised if even the poly
> proponents such as P-Dub are treading
> lightly, waiting to see a larger sample.
Richie,
Again, I\'m not a Poly propronent. Those $100+ races you noted were for the cheapest horses on the grounds. Wouldn\'t you agree that those types of horses are the most unpredictable horses on the grounds??
I am treading lightly, but I didn\'t fly to San Diego for 4 days to sit on my hands. I used the TG data and had some nice wins. All I\'m saying is that it seems that several people around here are jumping to conclusions without giving the new surface a chance. All I hear is how the Keeneland Poly is death to frontrunners and its all about closers. There were several horses on the lead that either won or came damn close the first week of Del MAr.
Mike,
People that love animals aren\'t bad people. This game is about the horses, not the whales. Bring your stable to Del Mar, train over the old surface, have your horses break down, then tell me how great that surface is for racing.
P-Dub,
I didn\'t need to redboard Delmar, I bet it for a couple days. And I certainly agree that a few days is not a full sample. Most of my distaste for poly is based on the Keenland meet. You are right, the writing is on the wall, poly is here to stay. Bettors have the choice to adjust and look for winning theories or stay away. For now, I stay away and it sounds like you choose to adjust. Fair enough.
Your last statement was to Miff, but I feel compelled to make one comment, albeit it will sound a bit callous. The \"sport\" is not just about the horses P-Dub. This isn\'t the Middle East where the owners run purely for sport and there is no gambling. The reality we live with is that this is a business that involved horses. Without gamblers (and Miff\'s whales), the sport doesn\'t survive in the U.S., no matter how beautiful and fast the horses are. I am certainly not proposing we make the sport more dangerous for the animals by running on unsafe surfaces. However, does everybody really believe that the reason we have breakdowns is purely related to the dirt tracks being less safe than poly? Nothing to do with horses receiving drugs that mask physical problems and reduce their sensitivity to pain, thus making them run faster than they normally would and thus enhancing the chance for serious injury? Does this have anything to do with it? With the recent cobra venom found in repeat offender Patrick Biancone\'s barn, I am not making \"wild and unfounded\" accusations. I am not saying everybody is doing, but it seems like at least some people are doing it.
I just question whether poly really is the panacea for \"safer racing\" that the industry is selling it as. Or is it a quick fix/patch that won\'t stop the problem and scares away at least some of the bettors that fuel the financial side of this sport.
Off my podium now. Good luck betting the poly. You may neeed it!
>I just question whether poly really is the panacea for \"safer racing\" that the industry is selling it as. Or is it a quick fix/patch that won\'t stop the problem and scares away at least some of the bettors that fuel the financial side of this sport.<
It\'s both.
No one wants to be the first to make the decision that racing must be drug free the way it is for most of the rest of the world. So they found a way to continue abusing the horses with drugs and still reduce the breakdowns. In the mean time, we (the players) get stuck with an ugly cross between dirt and turf racing that lacks both the brilliant speed of high quality dirt racing and furious finishes of high class turf racing. It might be possible to beat the new game by indentifying the best even-paced plodder, but they are never going to get me to go to DelMar to watch this crap racing again.
Jimbo
All points were well made. I guess if we look at it strictly from a data point of view, I believe both the Kee meet and the HOL meets betting handles were well above the previous years totals. I know the KEE meet was impaxcted by cold nasty rainy weather this year and still the handle was up.
I think everyone is still hung up the crazily run Bluegrass Stakes as a proxy for the whole.
Anyway lets have fun betting Saratoga (and hopefully winning), the way all race meets should be.
NC Tony
Paul,
The animal loons that I refer to are not animal lovers, they are people who put animals BEFORE the human element. Incidentally, there is no data to confirm that a horse who breaks down on dirt would not have on Poly. Thats a myth from the track managers who do not want to ban/reduce drug use or have super testing(very expensive).Poly is strictly an economic thing for the disingenious race track managers who could care less about the horses and only about their bottom line.
In your poly endeavors you may wish to know ( from a good jockey riding at del mar) that some jocks are NOT persevering with horse getting \"late\" because the stewards are too stupid to comprehend the exhaustion level the horses are feeling at Del Mar,so far. They are putting up lots of inquiries(it\'s because of the swerving that many horses are experiencing late in the races)Good luck!!
Mike
Miff,
isn\'t Keeneland a not for profit organization?
NC Tony
NC Tony,
Don\'t know for sure but think so, the very powerful Kentucky horse lobby is strong with the state government.John Veitch is the best thing that has happened to KY racing and he will be a pit bull on the drug thing going forward but testing money is always an issue, for profit or not.
Mike
All,
Respect everyone\'s view on this subject.
Mike,
I enjoy listening to your replies, even those I don\'t agree with. You make many valid points....Good luck this Summer.
question? is churchill going poly?
funny,horses dont close, the leaders just quit.
Back up the brinks truck?
There\'s no brinks truck when overbet favorites go to the lead and just keep going and pay 4 dollars.
Personally, i like polytrack. Poly turns a 6 furlong race into a route and a conventional dirt track turns a 6 furlong race into a 2 furlong race. Is that what you guys like, whoever gets the lead wins?
I believe that handicappers who are professing their distain for polytrack and criticizing the \'aesthetic beauty\' of horses completing 6f in 110 rather than 114 are handicappers who are losing money betting on the wax.
Plain and simple why polytrack is better for the horseplayer is because it makes the handicapping process harder. When the handicapping process becomes harder, the rewards to master that surface become greater. Personally, i like hard, i don\'t want easy. I don\'t want the entire world to know that the 6-5 shot is lone speed and thats the \'right\' horse to play. Forget that, i want kaos. I want to be able to bet on a 20-1 shot and feel like i have a shot to win, regardless of running style.
As far as blaming the \'staggerthon\' as to why you hate polytrack thats a bunch of bunk. You would all be lined up to bet this place if you had the key to the vault.
Anything that can produce the odd 60-1 shot to rally from dead last and win is music to my ears and something i\'ll embrace.
Stop trying to ram it down our throat that everyone must like Polyquack...As for P-dub, stick to what you know son...NOT what you THINK you saw/heard/know...I will put you ass to shame...
Tough to pass on this thread ... A few points while Saratoga is warming up , and short of sounding redundant -
1 ) the new surfaces remind me of the AQU Inner track bias at times in reverse or inverted terms . IMO - Horses are perhaps running a bit faster on the front end than normal ( relatively speaking ) because of the surface , and to throw around a baseball analogy - \" speed slows the game down \" because those on the front end are often cooked coming down the stretch - like one of those slowly cooked hot dogs , sliced down the middle - the long way , that richiebee was mentioning not to long ago .
2 ) Question - Which turf course at Belmont gets torn up and transformed into a Dirt Surface so that the Main Track can be converted to Poly ?
3 ) The way I see it , Saratoga should not be exempt from Poly if is to actually be a boutique centerpiece for NY Racing
4 ) I\'m not sure what to make of Poly one way or the other - except that it\'s another factor to deal with when handicapping .
What is funny?
I don\'t think the complaint is that Polytrack is too difficult. Most good handicappers would welcome added challenge balanced by even bigger payoffs.
The question is whether polytrack is predictable. Is it a true, consistent indicator of horse quality, i.e. does the best horse generally win the race?
I have no use for 60-to-1 shots that make no sense. That\'s for bingo/lottery players.
Well, polytrack being NOT predictable means it has an added challenge.
To answer your question about the best horse winning, i\'d say we\'re not sure. What i do feel is happening is that polytrack has made the ability to \'know the track\' just as important as knowing which horses are good. I think bias and pace are vital to who wins. You go too fast, you\'re toast. On a conventional dirt track i\'ve seen cheapies go 43 halfs and get nailed at the end, but hang on for the exacta or tri....on polytrack, if you go too fast, you\'re off the board...which is the way its supposed to be, right?
If there\'s a speed duel, the \'duelers\' are both supposed to be out of the tri. If one of them HITS the tri or exa, that means the track carried them to a board spot. On polytrack, you\'re not going to get carried to the line on the conveyor belt.
Should some tracks stay dirt (B type),or should the high volume tracks stay dirt(type A) till the older players fade out?
Maybe a 3 track set-up would be best for high volume top notch racing facilities.(Belmont)
Can\'t you just picture a humongous oval with entertainment,shopping,CASINO,and oh yes;an underground maintainence room converted into a high-tech horse racing den with restrooms re-fitted and recycled from the previous building located upstairs and near the barns.For our protection;a secret entranceway,far from casinos or concert hall,or parking lots.No food in this cozy denizon(cleanliness is next to...), but a $5 taxi ride to the restaurant area would be available.Almost like having our own private bomb shelter(school desk,optinal)(Well did he ever return?...no he never returned)
Think I\'m on mushrooms?...go visit Philly Park...Charles Town...Delaware Park
Want to see what Federal Section 8 housing is like?Try locating your car when you exit the darknees of a casino and are subjected to the brightness of day.
Add your own favorite track/casino to the list and describe your amenities.
Ok,I just got back from Philly Park and I piggy-backed onto this popular thread to vent and start a new movement:H.S.W.H.S.C.B.P.
HELL I\'D SIT IN WAIST HIGH SHIT IF I COULD BET THE PONIES
davidrex Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Think I\'m on mushrooms?
yes.
P-Dub Wrote:
\"and I doubt you were backing up the Brinks truck daily Colt\"
colt Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Stop trying to ram it down our throat that
> everyone must like Polyquack...As for P-dub, stick
> to what you know son...NOT what you THINK you
> saw/heard/know...I will put you ass to shame...\"
That one small comment provoked that idiotic statement??
You\'re not old enough to have a son, your little rant smacks of a 10 yr old. And if I were your son, I would obviously be adopted.
What I KNOW is that front runners, usually, are overbet.
What I HEARD is a horse owner getting tired of drugged up/milkshaked horses running on forever on a rock hard drag strip of a \"dirt\" track.
What I SAW is what I have just commented on.
If you are so inept at handicapping that the only way you can pick a winner is to find lone speed and get a single digit payout, then I can see why you are throwing a little tantrum over Polytrack. (BTW, I\'m still laughing over you Brinks truck comment.)
Nobody is saying you must like Poly. But it looks like you better get used to playing synthetic surfaces because they don\'t seem to be going away. The TG data has held up on Cal tracks from what I have seen.
\"I will put you ass to shame...\"
What exactly does this mean?? (I\'m now laughing all over again...you are one funny dude)
Polyquack,bet the runners that \"stagger\" less, adjust to that!! From the Mig:
Migliore was aboard for those two races. He is worried that the new Polytrack synthetic surface at Del Mar may not help a front-runner such as Bordonaro.
\"I thought it would be more like Arlington, with less bias,\" he said of the Del Mar track. \"This is more like Keeneland; horses get tired. The track isn\'t playing to his advantage. The only thing that tempers it is that he did work well over the surface.
\"I think horses will improve in their second race over it. Some look like they have the race won at the sixteenth pole and they stagger home\"
Mike
Mike
Enough already....you\'re right. You\'re always right.
Bring back the Whales.....
They stagger home.......The MIG said so.
Kee was bad with Dirt Front runners and worse bad with the Poly Folly...
Lets get the bulldozers and bring back the dirt.....I can\'t take it anymore.
NC Tony
NC Tony,
I can feel your pain, don\'t despair your not he only one getting carried at on Poly surfaces, adjust Tony, adjust.
Mike