Since there\'s a little lull in the Classics, here\'s a neat video I found on Youtube of the 1980 Strub Stakes with Spectacular Bid and Willie Shoe running the 1 1/4 in 1:57...I\'m guessing if TGJB were to assign a figure to this performance - it would be in the neighborhood of a -8...Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDbOyu5tTF4
The Bid was before my betting time, so I don\'t remember him and can\'t really appreciate his races. That Strub win looked effortless. Amazing Stride on that horse. He looked like a Greyhound.
Couldn\'t help but notice how they floated over that track. Very little dirt splash. Flying Paster must have run about a 1.58.4, Valdez maybe 1.59.2
and after setting a 44.2 half it looks like Relaunch may have run about a 2.00
Bid\'s mile fraction was 1.32.4
Obviously that track was smoking.
Easy Goer ran a faster mile on a more fair surface so I\'m quite sure Easy Goer would have won that race. Probably in 1.56.4
I did note all the references to TGraph in the discussion. Unfortunately the different era comparisons can\'t really be resolved. All that we can do is bet upon and appreciate the great ones in their eras. The Bid is gone now and so is Buddy Delp and The Shoe. I think they would have faired very well in this years Classics. Maybe, just maybe Bid would not have picked a nail up had 2007 been his year. However, they are part of the fabric of this sport and we had a once in a lifetime opportunity to enjoy them.
I was at Gulfstream during Shoemaker\'s Farewell Ride Tour. He was running in a Sprint Stakes aboard a Canadian bred by Bold Ruckus is my recollection. The horse went off at 9-2. I made a nice wager on the race and it turned out to be Shoes last Stakeswinner and perhaps his last winner. U[pm the latter contention, I\'m not certain now. I cashed that wager, but I wish I\'d held onto that ticket. It was just an ordinary Am Tote ticket with the Lavender highlights of the track colors, but it would have been worth more to me now than the return it provided then. It might even of had value beyond the dollars it could be used to claim.
CtC
Uncle Buck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Since there\'s a little lull in the Classics,
> here\'s a neat video I found on Youtube of the 1980
> Strub Stakes with Spectacular Bid and Willie Shoe
> running the 1 1/4 in 1:57...I\'m guessing if TGJB
> were to assign a figure to this performance - it
> would be in the neighborhood of a -8...Enjoy!
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDbOyu5tTF4
>Easy Goer ran a faster mile on a more fair surface so I\'m quite sure Easy Goer would have won that race. Probably in 1.56.4 <
ROTFLMAO!
This debate is why I question the the TG methodology somewhat. Mineshaft, I believe, used to be the fastest thoro-figure horse ever. You\'re going to tell me that Mineshaft ran better figures than Cigar?
Wider Buck, Wider, not faster.Certain running styles produce faster performance figs not faster horses.
Mike
Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Easy Goer ran a faster mile on a more fair surface
> so I\'m quite sure Easy Goer would have won that
> race. Probably in 1.56.4
Then I\'m quite sure Sunday Silence would have run a 1.56.0 and your boy would have finished second.
Chuck.....can you please stop referring to the second best colt from 1989???
Jerry has already addressed this issue to death and presented a lot of evidence in his articles posted elsewhere on the site. Personally, I don\'t think we have all the information required to make some of these intergenerational comparisons with 100% certainty. Plus, we all also know that there is a subjective element to making figures that could lead them astray over time.
All that said, I personally believe the 4YO Bid was one of the best 3 horses I ever saw (I started handicapping in the mid/late 70s). Neither of the other two was named Easy Goer. In fact, when I look at Easy Goer\'s record, I see a sensational horse that ran very fast on occasion. But he pretty much failed in every race in which he was entered against another really top class horse in a very important event (other than the Belmont which was 12F, his home track, and biased to favor his style). As good as I think he was, I think he is overrated by his diehard fans. I think that\'s why he tends to generate so much passionate discussion.
Easy Goer was a top notch horse on dry tracks.
The question is, what do we all agree makes a great horse? Whatever criteria we may agree or disagree upon, it\'s likely that we will all agree that a great horse must perform at his or her best on all types of tracks.
If you want to see a great horse in action, watch Secretariat\'s Triple Crown races. You cannot mention Easy Goer in the same breath. NFW.
I would just point out that Secretariat was a pretty good target when he stepped up to face his elders.
Chuckles the Clown\'s the Greatest of all Times,
1. Easy Goer
2. Smarty Jones
3. Seattle Slew
4. Spectacular Bid
5. Affirmed
alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Easy Goer was a top notch horse on dry tracks.
>
> The question is, what do we all agree makes a
> great horse? Whatever criteria we may agree or
> disagree upon, it\'s likely that we will all agree
> that a great horse must perform at his or her best
> on all types of tracks.
>
> If you want to see a great horse in action, watch
> Secretariat\'s Triple Crown races. You cannot
> mention Easy Goer in the same breath. NFW.
> Chuckles the Clown\'s the Greatest of all Times,
>
> 1. Easy Goer
> 2. Smarty Jones
> 3. Seattle Slew
> 4. Spectacular Bid
> 5. Affirmed
Greatest teams of all times:
1- 1990\'s Buffalo Bills
2- 1990\'s - present Atlanta Braves
3- 1988 Oakland A\'s
4- 1985 Georgetown Hoyas
5- 1983 Univ Houston basketball
Chuck,
Maybe your next song parody should be \"Delirious\".
i cant agree on the bills, if you are great you need to win the big one.
cubfan0316 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> i cant agree on the bills, if you are great you
> need to win the big one.
Cub,
I was being sarcastic......all of those teams came up short.
Only going back with horses I have seen, at any distance between 7/8ths and 10
furlongs-- 1) Secretariat, 2) Seattle Slew, 3) Spectacular Bid, 4) Forego,
5) Affirmed and 6) Alydar. Secretariat gets top spot because towards the end of
his career he was giving signs that he could have also become one of the top
grass runners of any generation. 3 Triple Crown winners and 2 near misses.
Agreed not too much controversy involved in those selections. I think Spec Bid
(IMO best turn of foot) and Forego (incredible will to win) may have had an
advantage at the shorter distances (ie 7/8s and one turn mile).
Smarty Jones to me was a one paced horse with great gate speed who was never
seriously challenged on the front during his victories.
Sorry Fager fans, I am too \"young\".
One I missed-- one of my personal favorite moments in racing was seeing Kelso\'s
5 consecutive Jockey Club Gold Cup trophies all in one case at the Nat Racing
Hall of Fame. Greatness, etched in gold.
Another I missed -- Olden Times--winner of the San Juan Capistrano on turf in
1962, his course record at 1-3/4s on grass stood, I believe, into the 1980s, as
did his track record at Churchill Downs at 7/8s on the main track. Speed,
versatility and one of Racing\'s most successful broodmare sires in the last
portion of the 20th Century.
I think I get the pun.
I just factor winning at 12 poles in hand rides very large. The Belmont is my favorite race. Last year obviously the Derby winner missed it. So did the Preakness Winner and Preakness runner up. It just wasnt worth a bet.
This year we have a good race. Including a couple shooters that should make it interesting.
I have great appreciation for Kelso. That run of Gold Cups and HOTYs is probably the safest achievement in sports. He would have hammered Sunday Silence in those Gold Cups. (There were 2 miles...lol) Easy Goer would have made Kelso run thats for sure.
Olden Times achievements noted. Secretariat lost 2 of 3 on Dirt when he moved up to face olders.
http://www.secretariat.com/past_performance.htm
Granted he might have had an X-0 pattern going. They\'ve never come close to his Belmont 2.24.......The closest is Easy Goer went in 2.26 and matched by A.P. Indy, Maybe Point Given. I\'d like to see a Chart of Secretariats Belmont Day Card. It must have been wicked fast.
Easy Goer ran the second fastest mile ever by a click. The fastest going to pretty darn good miler. Easy Goer also threw the fastest fractional times of all his contemporaries. He just threw them 2nd, 3rd or 4th fraction is all. His Breeders Cup Classic Split Run is still the most electrifying and physics defying move by a horse I\'ve ever seen. I think they could have taken him back and set him down for another run to catch Kelso at 2 miles.
Dancing Spree won Grade I\'s at six and 10 poles too. Did Fager do that?
Get rid of the Poly and bring the 2 mile Jockey Gold Cup Back.
Pletcher still struggling. Why are these stables giving them their horses? Poor Lawyer Ron.
P-Dub Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> > Chuckles the Clown\'s the Greatest of all Times,
> >
> > 1. Easy Goer
> > 2. Smarty Jones
> > 3. Seattle Slew
> > 4. Spectacular Bid
> > 5. Affirmed
>
> Greatest teams of all times:
> 1- 1990\'s Buffalo Bills
> 2- 1990\'s - present Atlanta Braves
> 3- 1988 Oakland A\'s
> 4- 1985 Georgetown Hoyas
> 5- 1983 Univ Houston basketball
>
> Chuck,
> Maybe your next song parody should be \"Delirious\".
Churkoman:
Andrew Beyer apparently went back and retroactively assigned Secretariat
a 139 Beyer figure for his Belmont run.
I appreciate your appreciation of the Belmont, but cant see how you
think this year\'s edition will be a good betting race. Right now it looks like
Tafel will prevail over Nafzger (if it were totally up to Nafzger, he already
would have pulled the shoes off of SS and turned him out) and SS will run at
Belmont. Given the short field and the fact that experts will tell us that
Curlin \"absolutely positively\" has to bounce at Belmont, I think that Tafel
might be right.
What might be interesting is that Curlin and SS will be relatively
forwardly placed, and to see how these 2 react to this scenario.
So you will have the top 3 from the first 2 legs, plus Tiago (not
flattered by KOTR\'s Preakness effort), \"Wild and Crazy\" and Slews Tizzy (well
beaten by Circular Quay at Fair Grounds). I guess the wise guys will be looking
at the 3 fresh Preakness absentees to advance and the top 3 (SS, Curlin, HS) to
bounce; simple game.
Look for NYRA to unfortunately have to \"hustle\" a couple of runners into
the Belmont (can you say Teuflesberg?)to fill trifecta wagers and to be able to
conduct Superfecta wagering.
oops sorry.little slow today
\"Andrew Beyer apparently went back and retroactively assigned Secretariat
a 139 Beyer figure for his Belmont run\"
Bee,
As a fun thought, that Beyer would translate to a rough neg -12 TG fig.
Mike
I doubt it\'s a high quality figure no matter what the source. I don\'t know, but I\'d be willing to bet it was the only two turn race of the day. Also, since Secretariat and Sham duked it out pretty hard on the front end (destroying Sham), I\'d have to think Secretariat ran even better than whatever final time figure he was assigned. Even if you tried to make his figure off the horses destroyed behind him, there\'s no telling how much very inferior horses trying to keep up with the top two during the fast middle splits were impacted by the chase. Finally, those horse behind him were probably not a reliable guage no matter what because it was a 12F race and lots of horses just don\'t like 12F.
I look at that race and still get \"chills\". \"Chills\" rates higher to me than a fast number. ;-)
I didn\'t miss seeing Kelso...I grew up as one of his die hard fans and was present at most of the races he ran in NYC.
However....and this is a big however....despite all the thrills he gave me, Kelso never beat anybody as good as the horses on the lists of \'all time greatest\' that have been circulated here.
Go back and check it...you will be amazed at how unknown were the horses he beat, but also amazed at the horses who clocked him, over and over. Gun Bow, Beau Purple???? Excuse me.
I remember winning a bet on a CV Whitney horse named Iron Peg who beat Kelso pretty handily at Aqueduct in some big race, based solely on looking for an upset. I was always looking for an upset to beat him, so I could cash a reasonable bet. He won most of the time, but lost to some ordinary horses MUCH of the time.
I don\'t think he would have warmed up Secretariat or Spectacular Bid, no matter how many Horse of the Year titles he won.
As for his Jockey Club Gold Cups, same thing. Look at the horses who finished behind him and tell me if you are seeing Hall of Fame fields. Or even if you recognize any of their names.
Sorry. I loved Kelso. But this is the reality.
As for Easy Goer winning the Belmont with a hand ride...sorry, but Sunday Silence was probably due for a major bounce in this race and after him there was no one on the track worth talking about. EG won in a hand ride because he could, not because he was that good.
He was above average, but he was not great.
>
> As for Easy Goer winning the Belmont with a hand
> ride...sorry, but Sunday Silence was probably due
> for a major bounce in this race and after him
> there was no one on the track worth talking about.
> EG won in a hand ride because he could, not
> because he was that good.
>
> He was above average, but he was not great.
Easy Goer was whipped five times in the 1989 Belmont starting at the 5/16ths pole...Watch it again.
The easiest hand ride I\'ve personally ever seen was Fu-Peg\'s Derby in 2000. Effortless.
With all due respect to your senoirity Alm, I\'d like to point out some facts that tend to support Kelso\'s greatness.
1st of Which is the Five year run of BOTH Jockey Club Gold Cups and Horse of the Year. We are not talking one lucky year when the crop is weak. We are talking a 5 year Run. I don\'t think that can be easily dismissed upon the notion that the horses he faced were not good enough to confer Greatness upon him.
I was alive in Kelso\'s era, just not old enough to bet or interested enough in the horses to pay attention. However, despite advancing age for the Computer Era, I\'m fairly adept with these machines. Computer literate as they say and competent to use them for any manner of research whatsoever.
The detail follows.
alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I didn\'t miss seeing Kelso...I grew up as one of
> his die hard fans and was present at most of the
> races he ran in NYC.
>
> However....and this is a big however....despite
> all the thrills he gave me, Kelso never beat
> anybody as good as the horses on the lists of \'all
> time greatest\' that have been circulated here.
>
> Go back and check it...you will be amazed at how
> unknown were the horses he beat, but also amazed
> at the horses who clocked him, over and over. Gun
> Bow, Beau Purple???? Excuse me.
Beau Purple set three track records beating Kelso. He didn\'t have the longevity of Kelso. But The Giant Killer certainly had him ready to roll at times. (Allen Jerkens for the youthful.)
http://www.pedigreequery.com/beau+purple
You have to click on the above link and then click on the \"i\" symbol at said link to get the synopsis to appear.
Jerkins also beat Secretariat twice. If Secretariat continued to run against Allen Jerkins how many races would he have lost and do you think these defeats diminish Secretariat\'s standing?
> I remember winning a bet on a CV Whitney horse
> named Iron Peg who beat Kelso pretty handily at
> Aqueduct in some big race, based solely on looking
> for an upset. I was always looking for an upset
> to beat him, so I could cash a reasonable bet. He
> won most of the time, but lost to some ordinary
> horses MUCH of the time.
Kelso ran 63 races. He won 39 and placed (usually very closely), 12 races. That is first or second in 51 of 63 races. Championships are made of those types of numbers. By any standard Kelso won Most of the time and was a major factor the great majority of the time. George W. Bush can only wish he had such numbers.
On another note. Gun Bow\'s 4YO year was probably worthy of Championship Honors. Kelso may have caught a break with the Voters, but I\'m not sure how the head to heads panned out.
Sunday Silence had the same Winning Percentage in 14 races, (9 wins) How much harder could they run that one with such an abbreviated career? And as hard as he ran how many Track Records did he set?
> I don\'t think he would have warmed up Secretariat
> or Spectacular Bid, no matter how many Horse of
> the Year titles he won.
Really? even if those two had to take him on in the 2 mile Jockey Gold Cup?
>
> As for his Jockey Club Gold Cups, same thing.
> Look at the horses who finished behind him and
> tell me if you are seeing Hall of Fame fields. Or
> even if you recognize any of their names.
>
> Sorry. I loved Kelso. But this is the reality.
>
> As for Easy Goer winning the Belmont with a hand
> ride...sorry, but Sunday Silence was probably due
> for a major bounce in this race and after him
> there was no one on the track worth talking about.
> EG won in a hand ride because he could, not
> because he was that good.
Regarding the above contention, Sunday Silence and Easy Goer had the same number of preps, with Easy Goers 3YO preps more closely grouped. Why was Sunday Silence due for the Bounce and not Easy Goer?
>
> He was above average, but he was not great.
I think they were both Great. Easy Goer was just closer to Kelso great is all.
Sorry, but I disagree completely.
Take a look at that list of the 100 greatest horses of the last century. I think Blood Horse compiled it (could be wrong about the source.) Look at the placing of Kelso and then try to find any horses on the list that he beat. You will be amazed at how few there are. Then take a look at the horses who raced against one another in the years before and after his career and which achieved stardom.
You can conclude whatever you want, but the truth is there ARE eras in which crop after crop produce average horses. You want to focus on the Derby to make this point? It\'s even easier: superstars (sarcasm intended) such as Dust Commander, Cannonade, Spend A Buck, etc.
I\'m saying this as a fan who loved Kelso. I also fell in love with Shuvee, the filly who won the Jockey Club Gold Cup two years running. She also beat NOBODY in those races. I mean in one year she beat the favorite named Loud. Does that one rock your boat?
As a season-end race, it often featured horses who were survivors more than anything else, so a good runner like these two had their pickins. HOY honors in those days were heavily influenced by the Gold Cup\'s outcome, but it was too heavily weighted IMHO.
One thing you mention, new track records...how can anyone on this board place track records high on the criteria of metrics to establish a horse\'s ability?
Sorry, but I see it this way...if Kelso raced against Dr. Fager, Buckpasser and Damascus, when they were knocking heads, he would have placed fourth.
Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I think they were both Great. Easy Goer was just
> closer to Kelso great is all.
Hello.
Is there anybody in there?
Just nod if you agree with me.
That Easy Goer is better than Sunday Silence?
Come on, now.
I know it is ridicu...lous
Easy Goer better than Sunday Silence??
I\'ll just blame it on drugs I took in the 60\'s.
Relax.
I need some information first.
Just the basic facts:
Easy Goer lost 3 out of 4 to Sunday Silence.
This makes no sense, I am receding.
A lonely soul, I am delusional.
Easy Goer in hand winning the Belmont by 7.
Who cares about the bias, no lasix, or NYRA helping him out??
When I was a child I had a fever.
This explains why I can\'t help myself.
To drone on about Easy Goer despite the facts
I cant explain, you would not understand.
This is how I am.
I have become Comfortably Dumb.
Ok.
Just a little nonsense.
Therell be no more --aaaaaahhhhh!
But I still believe Easy Goer\'s the greatest.
Can I stand up?
I do believe its working. good.
I\'m more loaded than a yearling at a sale
Why else would I sound so ridiculous?
There is no pain, I am receding.
A distant soul in search of some sense.
You are only coming through in waves.
You say Sunday Silence is bettter but I cant hear what youre sayin.
When I was a child I caught a fleeting glimpse,
Of Easy Goer winning the Classic
I turned to look but it was gone.
I was asleep, it wasn\'t real
The child is grown, the dream is gone.
I have become Comfortably Dumb.
Sometimes you are better off reducing questions to a moment in time, like the moment when Sunday Silence got shuffled back in the Preakness and Pat Day on Easy Goer had open lengths and a clear shot to win the race going into the final turn.
PVal was forced to almost check SS and go wide through the turn. Three wide I think.
Despite this setback, SS caught up to Easy Goer in a flash...a flash. He then battled him down the stretch on even terms and beat him at the wire.
Going 10 furlongs SS was best...slightly, but best. He had a better turn of foot, he was more agile, he was dead game. The lemon was squeezed too hard for him to bounce back in the Belmont and Easy Goer was a deserving winner of that.
Even though most of his stud career was in Japan, SS also beat Easy Goer in the breeding shed.
alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sorry, but I disagree completely.
Thats your prerogative.
> Take a look at that list of the 100 greatest
> horses of the last century. I think Blood Horse
> compiled it (could be wrong about the source.)
> Look at the placing of Kelso and then try to find
> any horses on the list that he beat. You will be
> amazed at how few there are.
From my quick research the other day the horses that challenged Kelso were Great in one year. Which can be determined by number of big wins and track records. Both Gun Bow and Beau Purple were monsters in a respective season. They just couldn\'t sustain it over multiple years against Kelso and they couldn\'t beat him at the greatest test of ability. In summary, Kelso wore them out and kept going.
Additionally, Kelso raced to be ready for a race and if you occasionally beat him congrats, but I\'m suspecting you beat him where he was getting ready for the payday race.
The accounts and records I read were clear that he was among the Greatest Ever. FYI Eddie Arcaro said that Kelso was the Best horse he ever rode and if you check the history you\'ll find Eddie ran on some very very good ones.
> Then take a look at
> the horses who raced against one another in the
> years before and after his career and which
> achieved stardom.
Not sure how that is relevant to horses that did not or chose not to face Kelso. (Northern Dancer for instance.) When good horses get beat by great horses their accomplishments may not come up to what they would have otherwise. Sunday Silence comes to mind. His Belmont drubbing pretty much reduced him to a good horse but not an exceptional one.
>
> You can conclude whatever you want, but the truth
> is there ARE eras in which crop after crop produce
> average horses. You want to focus on the Derby to
> make this point? It\'s even easier: superstars
> (sarcasm intended) such as Dust Commander,
> Cannonade, Spend A Buck, etc.
I addressed this point already, but if you don\'t think Spend a Buck was a freaky horse what can I say.
>
> I\'m saying this as a fan who loved Kelso. I also
> fell in love with Shuvee, the filly who won the
> Jockey Club Gold Cup two years running. She also
> beat NOBODY in those races. I mean in one year
> she beat the favorite named Loud. Does that one
> rock your boat?
She also won the Triple Tiara when it meant something. The fact that she won 2 JCGC\'s when it was the biggest race in the era of real Handicaps counts very big. Was she the greatest mare ever? Quite possibly.
> As a season-end race, it often featured horses who
> were survivors more than anything else, so a good
> runner like these two had their pickins. HOY
> honors in those days were heavily influenced by
> the Gold Cup\'s outcome, but it was too heavily
> weighted IMHO.
>
> One thing you mention, new track records...how can
> anyone on this board place track records high on
> the criteria of metrics to establish a horse\'s
> ability?
Those track records are a bit of a hurdle to overcome aren\'t they? and I can see you\'re struggling with them. Kinda like Bush saying \"We are fighting them there so we don\'t have to fight them here.\" Even though \"They\" weren\'t there when Bush decided to \"fight\" them there. And by the way Kelso ran those records too, including setting one in his final Gold Cup.
Not just one track record...multiple track records by each of two of Kelso\'s challengers which you dismissed in their respective great seasons. Don\'t get me wrong. I\'m not saying a track record Automatically confers greatness. I\'m saying the totality of circumstances has to be weighed. For example Bellamy Road\'s record tying Wood a couple years back. I never believed tying the track record that day on that track conferred any kind of super ability upon him as his two subsequent races tend to have borne out. However, I was on record Before those races occurred.
> Sorry, but I see it this way...if Kelso raced
> against Dr. Fager, Buckpasser and Damascus, when
> they were knocking heads, he would have placed
> fourth.
Maybe, but he would have beaten them up and taken their lunch money in the Gold Cup.
9 - KELSO
- Champion Three-Year-Old Colt and Horse Of The Year in 1960
- Champion Handicap Horse and Horse Of The Year in 1961, 1962, 1963 and 1964
- Won Jockey Club Gold Cup S. (3&up at 2 miles) at Aqueduct in 1960 and 1961, at Belmont Park in 1962, and at Aqueduct in 1963 and 1964
- Equaled the track record of 2:00 for 1 1/4 miles in the 1961 Woodward S. at Belmont Park
- Won the Woodward S. (3&up at 1 1/4 miles) at Aqueduct in 1962 and 1963
- Won Whitney S. (3&up at 1 1/8 miles) at Saratoga in 1961, 1963 and 1965
- Won Suburban H. (3&up at 1 1/4 miles) at Aqueduct in 1961 and 1963
- Won Brooklyn H. (3&up at 1 1/4 miles) at Aqueduct in 1961
- Won Metropolitan H. (3&up at 1 mile) at Aqueduct in 1961
- Set a new American record of 3:19 1/5 for 2 miles in the 1964 Jockey Club Gold Cup S. at Aqueduct, breaking his record of 3:19 2/5, set four years earlier in the same race
- Equaled the American record of 1:46 3/5 for 1 1/8 miles on turf at Saratoga in 1964
- Set or equaled four other track records at distances from 1 1/8 miles to 2 miles
1963 Race Record: 12-9-2-0, $569,762
Lifetime Record: 63-39-12-2, $1,977,896
The Clown writes:
\"When good horses get beat by great horses their accomplishments may not come up to what they would have otherwise. Sunday Silence comes to mind. His Belmont drubbing pretty much reduced him to a good horse but not an exceptional one.
Easy Blowhard
Sire: Easy Goer
Dam: Chuckles The Clown 2 (Bozo)
CTC2,
If you can answer one question with any semblance of reason, I will never mention these 2 horses again. What on earth makes you believe Easy Goer was great, while the horse that whipped him 3 out of 4 is merely good?? That farce of a Belmont??
I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Whittingham\'s daughter at a restaurant a few years back. I asked her a lot of questions about various horses and specifically about Sunday Silence. While her father gave Easy Goer credit for winning the Belmont, he also said Sunday Silence...all things being equal (and we all know what that means)...would beat Easy Goer 7 days a week. I\'ll take his word over that of a clown.
Hello.
Is there anybody in there?
Nod, Dub and Alm if you can hear me.
Is there anybody home?
Come on, now.
I know youre feeling down.
Well I can ease your pain,
Put you on your bets again.
Relax.
I need some information first.
Just the basic facts:
If you will show us where it hurts.
There is no pain, you\'re just receding.
As distant horses O\'er the horizon.
You both are ebbing away in waves.
Your posts appear but on one knows what you\'re saying.
As children did you both have fevers?
Were your heads merged just like balloons?
Its clear you\'ve that feeling once again.
I could explain but you would not understand.
The way a Halo or Kelso ran.
You have become mistakenly one.
Ok.
Just a little pinprick. [ping]
Therell be no more --confusion
But you were both very sick.
Can you stand up?
I do believe its working. good.
Thatll keep you going for the show.
Come on the Belmonts here its time to go.
alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Sometimes you are better off reducing questions to
> a moment in time, like the moment when Sunday
> Silence got shuffled back in the Preakness and Pat
> Day on Easy Goer had open lengths and a clear shot
> to win the race going into the final turn.
>
> PVal was forced to almost check SS and go wide
> through the turn. Three wide I think.
>
> Despite this setback, SS caught up to Easy Goer in
> a flash...a flash. He then battled him down the
> stretch on even terms and beat him at the wire.
>
> Going 10 furlongs SS was best...slightly, but
> best. He had a better turn of foot, he was more
> agile, he was dead game. The lemon was squeezed
> too hard for him to bounce back in the Belmont and
> Easy Goer was a deserving winner of that.
>
> Even though most of his stud career was in Japan,
> SS also beat Easy Goer in the breeding shed.
You missed the point, but so what.
As for Shuvee possibly being the greatest mare ever...I wish I could agree with you, because I got into the breeding business by buying one of her granddaughters (who turned out to be a dud.)
Nevertheless, if she was the greatest mare ever, why couldn\'t she beat Gallant Bloom?
She was the greatest mare to win the Jockey Club Gold Cup, which as I said, was the season ending race for survivors. Context is everything.