I understand that Shug plans on passing the Derby
with Sightseeing. On hearing this I
immediately thought of Survivalist not being entered after
finishing a distant
second to BR in the
Wood. Watching the Derby fall apart
that year, I wished
that Survivalist was
there to pick up the
pieces. Does anyone believe that, given Sightseeing is healthy out of the Wood, Shug might
be mistaken holding him out of the race? Why is he so gunshy about
the Derby, or is this
philosophy belong to the Phipps family?
very simple answer, the phipps family = CLASS, a rare commodity these days, they aren\'t desparate people. they do not enter horses to be part of the derby scene.
this is very hard for 98% of the people in america today to understand.
Survivalist?
If Shug\'s not running its because he knows his horse isn\'t up to it and he doesn\'t juice them up to try and get there.
If Nobiz has a stellar Derby you can look back and say \"Gee, Sightseeing ran him tough in the Wood, Shug should have run Sightseeing in the Derby.\"
Survivalist was a Danzig over a Mr. Prospector mare. He ran second and third tier races after the Classics were over. To say because Giacomo won that Survivalist could have picked up some pieces is a pretty big stretch.
But to say \"Survivalist should have run in the Derby because look at the effort of Bellamy Road there.\" is a tough sell. If you\'re saying that Bellamy Roads Wood was not as big as it looked, you\'ll get some support there.
He came out fine according to reports but if they run him back in the derby it might ruin his long term potential. As stated the Phipps family has no ego. Many owners are strictly driven by their egos\'. It won\'t be long before one of them is dragged around the track as they rush out to hold their horse parading to the winners circle.
In the owners box area you can hear \"Thats me,that\'s all me\" ... and I always thought it was the horse I was watching win.
Mike
All of you folks throwing bouquets at the Phipps seem to be forgetting Easy Goer. And I\'d be willing to bet that they\'ve had other Derby starters over the years. Now, if you want to say they\'ve had a notable lack of success in the Derby, that might be more accurate.
As to Sightseeing, in the race that I saw he was not catching Nobiz at the end. He looked like maybe a winner at the eighth pole but he flattened out in deep stretch.
Yeah, Bally. That Easy Goer had no business running in the Derby. What were they thinking?
Sightseeing seems like a hanger to me.
If Shug thought he was Derby quality, I think he\'d run him.
Don\'t go badmouthing Easy Goer...He ran into a machine called Sunday Silence on a muddy track. Shug/Phipps have had a couple others in the derby since but the point being made is his horses were usually legitimate runners who were not thrown into the derby just because the owners wanted to be there.
I don\'t think it has a lot to do with the quality of the animal, its about the philosophy of the stable.
Basically, the entire world is fascinated by the Ky Derby. Everyone wants to win it, some are just willing to go to greater lengths to do so.
For whatever reason, the Phipps\' must feel the Derby isn\'t all that important. If they held that race in as high as regard as everyone else, they\'r probably be running if they had ANY chance whatsoever.
Unfortunately, Churchill Downs feels the need to \'taint\' their signature race by attaching a corporate sponsor to the race. To me, that cheapens the race for the fans. Its a sellout basically. Its like when you were growing up in the 1980\'s listening to John Mellencamp sing Jack and Diane and you loved his music and felt that his songs \'meant something\' to the era in which you grew up, you\'d be upset that he\'s writing songs and selling his \'heart\' to Chevrolet just to make a dollar that he doesn\'t need.
If Churchill doesn\'t care all that much about the prestige and the \'race of all races\' title and they\'ll sell out to make a dollar thru advertising (and btw, that dollar doesn\'t go back into YOUR pocket in any way shape or form) than why should the Phipps\' care about it either?
It goes to show you nothing is sacred anymore, pretty soon we\'ll have the pope selling his robe on E Bay.
I have a very strong feeling that the Phipps would Treasure a Derby winner. They however do right by their horses. The loss last year of Pine Island was a very tragic event for a Family that cares about the well being of the animals they race and their obligation to the breed.
The Phipps have run a number of horses in the Derby during my betting years.
Seeking the Gold
Easy Goer
Awe Inspiring
Accellerator
Easy Goer was not a Churchill slop horse and the connections underestimated Sunday Silence, but Easy Goer was as good a horse as has ever started in the Derby.
imallin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don\'t think it has a lot to do with the quality
> of the animal, its about the philosophy of the
> stable.
>
> Basically, the entire world is fascinated by the
> Ky Derby. Everyone wants to win it, some are just
> willing to go to greater lengths to do so.
>
> For whatever reason, the Phipps\' must feel the
> Derby isn\'t all that important. If they held that
> race in as high as regard as everyone else, they\'r
> probably be running if they had ANY chance
> whatsoever.
>
> Unfortunately, Churchill Downs feels the need to
> \'taint\' their signature race by attaching a
> corporate sponsor to the race. To me, that
> cheapens the race for the fans. Its a sellout
> basically. Its like when you were growing up in
> the 1980\'s listening to John Mellencamp sing Jack
> and Diane and you loved his music and felt that
> his songs \'meant something\' to the era in which
> you grew up, you\'d be upset that he\'s writing
> songs and selling his \'heart\' to Chevrolet just to
> make a dollar that he doesn\'t need.
>
> If Churchill doesn\'t care all that much about the
> prestige and the \'race of all races\' title and
> they\'ll sell out to make a dollar thru advertising
> (and btw, that dollar doesn\'t go back into YOUR
> pocket in any way shape or form) than why should
> the Phipps\' care about it either?
>
> It goes to show you nothing is sacred anymore,
> pretty soon we\'ll have the pope selling his robe
> on E Bay.
Imallin:
A direct quote from John Mellencamp on the Imus in the Morning (RIP) show:
\"Chevrolet did more to promote my music than any record company ever did\"
I always liked Pink Houses and Cherry Bomb better than Jack and Diane. Cherry
Bomb, a song which expresses longing for days gone by, has as part of its chorus
words which might describe racing in the past \"Thats when a sport was a sport\".
Bally:
Whether you want to throw the bouquet or not, you must be aware of the
following: The Phipps family going back to the 1930s (well before my time,
obviously), through the 50s with Bold Ruler, into the 60s with Buckpasser, Time
For a Change\'s great upset of Devil\'s Bag and Dr. Carter in the \'84 Flamingo,
Cynthia Phipps\' tremendous filly Christmas Past, the great Shug trained fillies
and mares of recent years (Personal Ensign, Inside Information, My Flag,
Country Hideaway, etc)...
...was I making a point somewhere?
Oh I guess the point was that in terms of racing and breeding, no single family
or entity has had more success in America than the Phippses. Maybe Calumet came
close, but all it took was one free spending, hard living country boy to
bankrupt the whole organization.
Like em or not, the Phipps family has very little left to prove, at
Churchill Downs or anywhere else.
Nuff said..
Bee,
You forgot the 8th wonder of the racing world. All the brilliant Phipps mares never threw a champion or anything close to one. It kinda stamps breeding as a somewhat random endeavor.It\'s been a source of silent pain for Shug that none of the mares throw speed, who woulda thunk it.
Mike
\"Bee,
You forgot the 8th wonder of the racing world. All the brilliant Phipps mares never threw a champion or anything close to one. It kinda stamps breeding as a somewhat random endeavor.It\'s been a source of silent pain for Shug that none of the mares throw speed, who woulda thunk it.
Mike\"
I think you have lost it...Cadillacing had Easy Goer...I think every Personal Ensign foal has been a graded winner..That is to name a few...check your facts before posting false remarks..
Personal Ensign was the dam of both My Flag and Tradionally. My Flag was the dam for BC Juvy champ Storm Flag Flying.
Richiebee,
My previous post is not meant as a knock on the Phipps family who we both know are old line class horseowners. I just don\'t think it\'s appropriate to canonize them for not running a horse who\'s still eligible for NW2.
Parenthetically, do you remember Mrs. Henry Carnegie Phipps, who was the grand dame of the stable for many years? It was widely reported that she was less than thrilled with PEB\'s caricature of her which often appeared in the DRF. It was there frequently because they had a barnload of runners in those days (many of them Bold Rulers)
One year, in the Garden State Stakes, which was the richest race in the world at that time, they ran a FIVE horse entry.
Lost,
Talking about derby types. EZ was 18 years ago, check your facts.
Mike
The Phipps mares have produced multiple champions including Inside Information, Personal Ensign, Relaxing (The actual dam of Easy Goer), Easy Goer and Rhythm. Theres more, including Buckpasser. I can\'t list them all. Shug is a real horseman, he\'s not gonna cheat. His stable wouldn\'t allow it even if he wanted to. Shug will be back with a good horse one year. Unless you are medicating them you have to be a little lucky.
Lost Cause Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> \"Bee,
>
> You forgot the 8th wonder of the racing world. All
> the brilliant Phipps mares never threw a champion
> or anything close to one. It kinda stamps breeding
> as a somewhat random endeavor.It\'s been a source
> of silent pain for Shug that none of the mares
> throw speed, who woulda thunk it.
>
> Mike\"
>
> I think you have lost it...Cadillacing had Easy
> Goer...I think every Personal Ensign foal has been
> a graded winner..That is to name a few...check
> your facts before posting false remarks..
I\'m not getting this whole conversation. 99% of the Phipps runners are homebreds. If their mares aren\'t producing all those sw, what, the stork brought them?
Nobody reads well, Colts that run and are factors in the TC. Whats their names the last 15 years?
Mike
Well I can read and \"Champion\" has a distinct meaning in regard to Horse Racing. \"Triple Crown Event Winner\" or \"Triple Crown Winner\" have different meanings too. If Miff meant to say a Phipps 3YO Colt has not been effective in the Triple Crown Events recently, he would be correct. But that\'s not what he said.
As far as breeding goes Distorted Humor may be the hottest item in modern breeding. His stud fee should be greater than Storm Cat, because his get have better potential at the distance and to my eye are more solidly made. Let the Phipps band of mares breed to him and lets see if they show some speed.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I\'m not getting this whole conversation. 99% of
> the Phipps runners are homebreds. If their mares
> aren\'t producing all those sw, what, the stork
> brought them?
Chuck,
The board was initially discussing why Phipps would not rush Sightseeing into the Derby and that\'s what I was referring to. Correct, I should have said colts.
About 7 years ago we were having a drink in Saratoga and Shug joined us with his wife. Talk about horses led to a question from my friend Carl about the lack of participation by Shug/Phipps in the TC races. Shug said\"I\'m not getting any colts with speed, how can I compete\"
Incidentally, from memory,most of the Phipps mares go to very good stallions.
Mike
Am not so interested in this thread, but, for those who are, this article may be of interest --
http://www.kentuckyderby.com/2002/derby_coverage/derby_news/derby_news_05022002.html
Personally, I think they are looking at his Wood performance and saying he more or less inherited second after No Biz disposed of the other speeds (despite being rank and fighting) and then repulsed AGS\'s later more serious bid. I don\'t know how you can come away from that race thinking anything other than No Biz is much better than the Shug horse right now.
If you think AGS ran subpar and was used harder early (which IMO he did/was), you come away from the Wood thinking that Sightseeing is a very promising colt that is moving in the right direction but he didn\'t really accomplish all that much in that spot by finishing second.
He would be a deserving longshot in the Derby despite finishing relatively close to No Biz in the Wood. (keep in mind I am not raving about No Biz. I\'m just comparing those two)
However, if you assume he continues moving in the right direction, later this year he may be hitting his best stride just when some of the horses that competed in the Derby are starting to tale off. Why waste him in the Derby where he is likely to make a run and finish mid pack when they can keep him fresh, develop him, and pick up some good checks along the way waiting for a spot where he has a legit shot at a big dance.