The boys are doing a show about things that need to be done to fix the game. My segment was 4:30 to 5, it runs to 7 pm. I focused mostly on drugs. They archive the shows, you should be able to listen to my rant at some point.
http://www.attheracesandbeyond.com
Jerry,
While I dont always agree with your opinions I agreed with what you said and thought you did a solid job on the show, thanks for the effort!
That radio show was just the beginning. Well see what happens over the next couple of months with some discussions I have initiated, but I think it will come down to horseplayers taking matters in their own hands. I\'ll keep everyone informed.
Want to take the opportunity to thank JB for his contributions to \'Mutual Interests\', our special presentation Wednesday.. Based on the responses I\'ve heard so far, his comments were the ones that hit home with the listeners the most. Below find direct mp.3 links to the three seperate hours of rather intense conversation with 6 of the industry\'s most provocative minds and voices.
We continue at \"At the Races and Beyond\" to try and make the show \'important\' by providing a forum for horsemen and industry-related devotees, and what Jerry had to say is the kind of message I\'m hoping we can continue to deliver.
Hope you\'ll listen and tune in...
SIRIUS 125, M-F, 4-7pm EST, replayed 1-4am and 4-7am EST.. (Note: MOVING TO SIRIUS 126 on February 14th!) or Listen Live from our website...
\"MUTUEL INTERESTS\"
Andy Serling, Jerry Brown:
http://www.attheracesandbeyond.com/stream/13107a.mp3
Ted Mudge, Steve Crist:
http://www.attheracesandbeyond.com/stream/13107b.mp3
Maury Wolff, Andy Beyer:
http://www.attheracesandbeyond.com/stream/13107c.mp3
Thanks for pointing that show out.
I\'m going to take a slightly contrarian position though. (it\'s my style)
I don\'t think enough was mentioned about the people that suffer the most because of the illegal drug issue. IMO, it\'s the honest owners, trainers, assistant trainers, vets, grooms etc.... that can\'t compete and earn the living they deserve. People like that are being forced out of the game.
As I\'ve already said, I don\'t think the drug issue impacts me much at all as a gambler. I spend some time looking for trainer strengths and weaknesses. I believe that effort allows me to compensate for or even take advantage of some of the cheating that goes on. I know other horseplayers that feel the same way.
So while I agree 100% that illegal drug use is a major long term problem for the sport, I sense too much emphasis being put on horse player issues and not enough on other aspects of the problem.
Overall though, it was a great show.
Edited 2/1 (9:56)
I haven\'t yet listened to the shows, but I disagree with prev post.
I have a distaste for playing in crooked games where I\'m not the crook.
I don\'t care if I KNOW who the crook is, I still don\'t know his plans, only he does.
Better to leave the table. And find an \'honest\' one.
Just listened to the JB segment, and I\'m glad to see he has addressed all the relevant issues.
Sadly, they are the same relevant issues from 30 years ago.
listened to it sat AM, and decided I would do something about it...anytime I see an Assmussen entry, I pass the race...same for Norman of course. we don\'t see much Pletcher in these parts. There\'s no problem finding another play with so many tracks running...none at all.
Jerry - you could get a lot of help in funding the cause with wearables and the like...happy to help design if needed.
Fkach,
For a change, I agree with most of what you say on this issue. You make an excellent point when you say that the ones who suffer most are the honest trainers, owners, grooms, vets, etc., though the horses and jockeys whose lives are endangered by illegal drug use may suffer even more.
It is indeed possible for bettors to adjust and even profit from the drug problem but I, and I suspect that most handicappers and bettors, would much prefer a fair game, as Boscar has pointed out. Personally, as I primarily handicap for recreation, I got into the game for the fun of predicting a fair athletic contest and not a game of "spot the crooked trainer".
Of course, I have to take the juicers into account in my handicapping. I'd just rather not have such despicable practices that endanger lives and drive honest people out of the sport as a source of my profit. It just takes a lot of the fun out of the game.
I do agree that there are others more affected than gamblers by the drug problem, but I also think the majority of bettors would like to see the sport cleaned up as well.
I also think that the bettors, as the ultimate consumers, have the unique power to change things, and as those who profit from the sport, have an obligation to use this power to protect the honest trainers, as well as the horses and riders, who give us this sport.
Bob
bob,
I don\'t disagree with anything you said.
I never said I enjoyed betting on horses that recently moved to a \"suspect\" barn etc... or that I prefer to play a crooked game. I said I have long studied tainer strengths and weaknesses anyway. Doing so has allowed me to adapt to these conditions and to continue playing a winning game. I know several other people like me. Point being, that until the situation is corrected, we can play and win despite the conditions. I don\'t see that statement of fact as interfering with the goal of changing things or suggesting that I like things this way. I don\'t think others should either because it\'s not true.
fkach,
I was in no way trying to imply that you were enjoying the adjustemnts that have to be made given the way things are. My point was that most horseplayers, you included, wish it were otherwise. Sorry if it seemed I was saying something else. You are definetley sensitive to the problems created by illegal drug use for everybody.
Bob
I believe NYRA, and or whomever it is that will be taking over the running of this franchise will put the horses first on their list of prioritys.For if it was not for these athletes there would be no racing,therefore their well being should come first and foremost.So if that means cracking down on illegal drug use,more thorough checking by vets morning of race,especially those taking such obvious drops in class,and making sure that track is in tip top condition,which I do not belive it is kept as well as it once was in the past,how could it be with such a mild winter and all the card cancellations ,something is up.Thankfully the jocks will recover from this past weeks incidents,my prayers to them and their families.but who is standing up on behalf of those thoroughbreds who lost their lives.I guess insurance will compensate those owners.Unfortunately business is business to some.
I meant I hope they will put horses first ! Worded my thoughts wrong !
Just heard Andy use the same 30 year figure. Scary.
Comes from being around too long.
Hey wasn\'t my 3rd cousin twice removed Oscar Barrera the first really blatant juice man in NY?
Finished up the last of the 3 hours of show. Great to be able to skip past those idiotic ads.
Also, great to hear Steve Christ thinks the drug thing is overblown and the standings are always dominated by a few misunderstood resident genii.
interesting thing imo about those two is when the medication issue is on the table , neither really had ideas - doesn\'t make sense ...
The mild winter is definitely over...
Thanks to a number of requests, last week\'s \'Mutuel Interests\' show will be re-played Wednesday (2/8) from 4-7pm (Internet only) and on twice on SIRIUS 125 Thursday morning (1-4am & 4-7am EST)..
http://www.attheracesandbeyond.com (Click on LISTEN LIVE link for the 4-7pm airing..)
Contaminants, \'Zero Tolerance\' on Collision Course
by Tom LaMarra
Date Posted: February 9, 2007
Last Updated: February 9, 2007
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A Louisiana research project that shows racehorses can come into contact with drug residue just about anywhere on the backstretch has some horsemen calling for an end to "zero tolerance" drug-testing policies and creation of a national panel to examine data before inadvertent positives are called.
The study, presented by Dr. Steven Barker during the National Horsemen's Benevolent and Protective Association Medication Committee meeting Feb. 9 in Hot Springs, Ark., revealed small quantities of six drugs were found in samples taken from ship-in stalls, the test barn, and pools of water at Louisiana racetracks. Even dust samples were tested and trace amounts of substances were found.
Barker, the chemist for the Louisiana State Racing Commission who plans to publish his findings, said small amounts of phenylbutazone, flunixin, naproxen, caffeine, furosemide, and cotinine, a metabolite of nicotine, were discovered in samples. Flunixin, a widely used non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drug, was the most prevalent, the study showed.
Some drugs were detected from just wiping the interior of stalls.
"We could have gone to other areas of that stall and found other drugs," Barker said during his presentation to horsemen. "Clearly, the backside of a racetrack is heavily contaminated with drugs. Hopefully, you're scared."
With highly sensitive testing methods and zero-tolerance policies, a trainer could be charged with a positive for having one molecule of a substance in a sample, Barker said. Other potential sources of trace amounts of drugs are feed, pasture grasses, improper handling of samples, and mistakes by veterinarians, he said.
Barker said even with precautions in stable areas, drug residue wouldn't be eliminated. Therefore, he said threshold levels for drugs are a necessity.
"First of all, we need to abolish the concept of zero tolerance," Barker said. "It's an over-simplified attempt to regulate drugs. There's no sense to continue that nonsense. You can't eliminate drug contamination, so you have to approach it at the interpretation-of-data end."
Kent Stirling, executive director of the Florida HBPA and chairman of the National HBPA Medication Committee, criticized laboratories and regulators. He said labs get business "by showing regulators they can find things," and regulators "believe any time there is a (positive) it was an attempt by the trainer to compromise a race. A lot of people judge labs by number of calls."
Stirling said the suggestion of a drug-positive review panel should be taken to the Racing Medication and Testing Consortium for consideration. Barker said the panel would "offer some kind of political cover for the industry to establish better thresholds."
The RMTC is in the process of having research performed to establish threshold levels for almost 50 therapeutic medications. Barker, Stirling, and other said thresholds are important given regulations that don't keep in step with technology.
Barker claimed about 80% of drug positives fall under the category of having no impact on a horse outside of 24 hours. "These comments I've heard that any level (of a substance) could potentially have an impact on performance ... oh, crap."
In another presentation, Dr. Thomas Tobin of the University of Kentucky discussed caffeine and its metabolites. Tobin, an adviser to the National HBPA, noted the variation in threshold levels for caffeine in various jurisdictions--30 nanograms per milliliter in urine in Hong Kong to 1,000 nanograms per milliliter in Canada.
"Caffeine is the most widely consumed psychoactive substance on earth," said Tobin, who is continuing to research the drug. "It's a hunting license for a chemist."
Dr. Robert Lewis, a former president of the American Association of Equine Practitioners and currently the organization's representative on the RMTC, said the RMTC has been effective at getting people to focus on the issues. He cited the group's recommendation to regulate steroids, an action he called proactive.
"The RMTC at first had competing agendas, but no one group dominated," Lewis said. "It has been a largely educational process. It has been rewarding to watch the evolution."
As for Barker's research project, Lewis said it should be presented to the RMTC.
"It opens everybody's eyes to hear this kind of material," Lewis said. "I think it takes peer pressure from the leaders of this industry to get the attention of regulators in these different states. The disparity in the way labs in this country handle post-race samples has been a huge problem."
Copyright © 2007
Very good stuff Miff, showing that Racing will always have a problem
establishing a balance between \"zero tolerance\" and \"zero credibility\".
In terms of the dangers of performance enhancing drugs, I have always thought
that legal and more invasive procedures performed (like tapping and injecting
knees and ankles)have a more damaging long term effect on the general health of
the thoroughbred population, yet these procedures continue unchecked.
In an unrelated matter, the Thursday NY Daily News reported a rumor that NYRA
might be allowed to continue administering NY racing if NYRA drops its legal
claims to the ownership of the property. Any truth to this?
Richiebee,
Keep your fingers crossed for NYRA, the alternatives will be a disaster for New york racing in the long run.Talks have become \"more cordial\" with the state although Spitzer does not love NYRA management and vice versa.The withdrawl of the lawsuit over the land ownership was a great move by NYRA.
A plan joining the cancerous OTB\'s and NYRA is gaining some steam in Albany.The treachery amongst the present suitors for NY racing would make a great book.Spitzer, Bruno and Silver hold all power in the State and the final decision will be agreed by them before this thing is over.
If NYRA keeps the franchise, several fairly prominent horsemen(spies for the opposition) will be gone,imo.
Mike
I find it depressing that some people are actually rooting for the organization (NYRA) that has managed NY racing into a slow death spiral in recent years. When I go to Belmont on a beautiful spring or summer day, it\'s like a ghost town. Overpriced food, endless poor racing, small fields etc... I went to AQU last winter and I\'ll never go again. I have no axe to grind. I\'m not even familiar with the alternatives. Maybe they are even worse. But if this isn\'t a reason to be depressed about NY racing, I don\'t know what is.
Fkach:
I am a huge fan of New York racing for over 30 years, but not necessarily a
big fan of NYRA. That being said, I would like to say that NY racing\'s current
problems have a lot to do with the state of New York.
1) NYRA has been forced to compete with OTB for 30 years. This would have
created a much larger problem if OTB had been anything but a poorly run
patronage mill.
2) The state of New York has delayed the opening of the VLT facility at Aqu
for the last 5 years.
No matter who ends up in control of the NY franchise, their biggest problem will
be to determine what is to be done with the 2 downstate \"white elephants\",
Belmont and Aqueduct. New York racing\'s future going forward should be based
on the construction of a modern multi purpose facility at one of these
locations;only then will NY racing be able to retain and grow its customer
base.
richiebee,
\"1) NYRA has been forced to compete with OTB for 30 years. This would have
created a much larger problem if OTB had been anything but a poorly run
patronage mill.\"
You don\'t have to tell me about the problems caused by NY State (or any government for that matter). I equate government with problems.
I agree on #1.
Wasn\'t this something that NYRA management more or less allowed to happen in the beginning because they didn\'t understand the impact the silly deal they agreed to would have on their business?
Miff-- a distinction has to be made (as I already know that you know) between drugs like the ones mentioned above, and those that serve as direct performance enhancers (EPO, raceday Clenbuteral, alkalizing agents, etc.).
The problem with a national board is the same as the one I described on the radio show-- it will have no power. No matter what its findings, if the horsemen within a certain jursidiction don\'t like them, they will do everything they can to block enforcement.
Side comment-- there has been a lot of talk on this board about Assmussen. I happen to be working with the guy, but we\'re not particularly friendly, so the following is based stricly on looking at sheets of his horses-- there is no indication he is moving horses up. When a trainer has a lot of horses come in and out of his barn it\'s easy to tell-- take a look at the sheets of Amoss and Autrey horses at FG, to name a couple on the same circuit.
The big problem comes in assessing those trainers who get horses unraced, and keep them until they retire.
Of course, every once in a while there\'s a Fleet Indian...
the land issue imo was a good move by nyra - either way . i\'m beginning to belive that problems may be fixed from where we are now . that might not be the case if big and not necesarily positive change take place . i\'m mildly impressed with the group that recently held the towne hall meeting upstate .
-additionally... by vitue of it\'s proximety to jfk & highway and public trans inferstructure i see Aqu prominently in the center of any ny racing revitilization attempts . to me , bel has lost alot position and leverage for it\'s future and continued survial with the extended sar meet .
Jerry,
I agree but a problem which no one speaks of is the smaller honest hard working trainers in New York and elsewhere who are maybe a nano/contaminent positive away from perhaps losing their livelyhood.Too many people are looking at the usual perps without regard for the honest guys who are being lumped in because they hold a trainers license.Imagine losing your career due to an overzealous test lab looking to impress it\'s clients.
Several solid trainers in NY are purposely giving LEGAL meds further out than allowed for fear of positives. Conversly, the move up trainers are walking very close to the edge in this regard because they can afford it.Thats just with legal stuff.The blood dope et al still remain undetected.
I have seen no solutions proposed which can level the playing field.
Only because I think you kinda inferred, the last guy that I think is using illegal stuff in NY is Pletcher.Run his stock thru a TG proram and you will not see any pattern of move ups over the entire sampling.I don\'t see it, maybe you do. Everybody gets tired of getting beat by TAP short priced runners so they yell juice, but I remain convinced that he\'s legit.I have a list of TAP runners, their acquistion cost, sales training splits et al and by their performance, illegal stuff just don\'t add up.
Mike
P.S. I respect TAP, he\'s an acquaintance and I think the board gives him a bad rap without considering he has the best barn in the world by far and only wins at 25%.
Mike-- as I said, it\'s tough to do a study with guys like Pletcher and Frankel because of how their operations work. But it is notable that both barns had a lot of horses move way up a few years ago when they hired Allday (Left Bank was one who jumped at the time, if I\'m not mistaken, and I think Frankel hooked up with him Spring 2001).
Jerry,
I remember Left Banks freaky performances.I would think that with say a few hundred millions dollars worth of stock over the years that a freak could show up on occasion.Bobby Frankel is a sharp human being and maybe a great horseman or juicer, don\'t know.
As far as Allday, I wonder how TAP went 0 for 30( I think) in the TC and BC races this year.
Mike
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Side comment-- there has been a lot of talk on
> this board about Assmussen. I happen to be working
> with the guy
Jerry, don\'t you see the problem here?
Is it a case of \"can\'t beat em join em\", or do you really think Asmussen is OK?
I inherited Assmussen when I got Parra as a client, and have been working with him directly recently. But Mmy point is that anyone can look at the sheets of the horses that change hands and form their own conclusions about trainers-- that\'s how I do it. I don\'t care what anyone tells me, with few exceptions.
Jerry,
I am using Amoss as my trainer and I am pretty familiar with his operation. I don\'t believe he is using anything illegal. He is very aggressive about where he puts his horses. They often run big numbers on the drop. I think that is true of most trainers but Tom drops more readily than most others. I think this is the reason he has such a high win percentage. Having said that, I know his brother is the New Orleans Saints team physican!
i have the answer. why dont all the honest trainers start finding a new livelyhood. prettysoon the cheaters will be all alone. game over.
Formal Gold-- Again, my comments about Amoss and any trainer are based strictly on the sheets of their horses. Since it is still there, go to the Red Board Room and take a look at the sheet for Smoke Mountain, scratched from yesterday\'s 5th at FG. First race for Amoss was 10/13.
While you are at it, look at the sheet of the wiiner of the previous race, Dr. Schwartz. First start for Autrey was 12/23.
The info about Amoss\' brother is interesting.
More inconclusive evidence for the record regarding Pletcher/Allday circa 2002;
Freedom\'s Daughter dies (http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleindex/article.asp?id=10936)
Warners dies (http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleindex/article.asp?id=11079)
Left Bank dies (http://www.bloodhorse.com/articleindex/article.asp?id=11936)
the mysterious deaths, which if anything, must be considered a statistical anomaly
Jerry,
Just listened to the ATRAB show. Great stuff, i agree with pretty much everything you said.
If every racehorse was clean, the best horseplayers would win just like they do now. BUT. People who weren\'t that good but had inside info as to what horses were getting the juice and what horses were NOT getting the juice would not be able to win.
With no drugs, there\'s no way the \'racing mafia\' could win unless they actually had a true, honest to goodness, winning horseplayer telling them who to wager on. Any illegal stuff going on behind the scenes would be stopped cold in their tracks. There are probaly very powerful people behind what goes on in the biggest betting days of the year that NEED drugs to be in the game....or else, how would they win?. There has to be someone, somewhere who knows some really, secretive, amazing information about the Ky Derby/Preakness/Belmont/BC races that they can win an absoltute MINT. A license to print money just on the biggest days of racing. If every horse was drug free, how would these guys know who to bet on? They\'d actually have to handicap the winners like the rest of us...imagine that!
Here\'s a hypothetical scenario. Lets say Barbaro was lame the day after the Derby in his stall at Fair Hill. Do you know how much that information is worth had you been able to KNOW he\'s lame but going to race in the Preakness anyway? Whats that worth to a horseplayer who can wager 50,000 on the Preakness? If you know a 1-5 shot can\'t hit the board. How much would you pay to be the only person to know Barbaro can\'t hit the board in the Preakness and you had the ability to wager 50 or 100k into the pool? Its gotta be worth at least 50k, right?
Now, i just used Barbaro as an example because he comes to mind, but just think about stuff from the past....like the Holy Bull rumors that he was drugged before the Derby so he couldn\'t win...what would that have been worth if you knew the guy who slipped him a mickey an hour before the race? Its worth whatever you want it to be worth into those betting pools. How about Point Given....amazing horse who just happened to run flat in the Derby. Was PG slipped a mickey in the Derby? Who\'s to say, they never came up with anything as to why he ran so poorly.
So, there are people with HUGE pull who don\'t want to change a thing. Don\'t ask, don\'t tell.
The level playing field makes all the people who are siphoning large amounts of money out of the big betting pools go away and forces them to actually HANDICAP the races, instead of knowing who\'s getting the burst and who is not.
I agree with putting the vet\'s name on the program and publshing \'vet stats\'. Also they have trainer and jockey standings? Have \'vet standings\'.
Also, i think horses need to be under video supervision at all times....if that horse comes up positive, just go back to the videp surveillance and see what happened.
You have lots of great ideas, hopefully someone in the game who has some pull is listening.