The entire modern sports world is on juice. Can you compete in any sport without juice? Hell no.
Horses - some claimed for $50,000K run 120 Beyers on the juice, see Lava Man or any horse Dutrow runs.
NFL Players - the league\'s drug testing policy can\'t detect HGH. Have you seen the size of these guys lately? Somebody is going to die soon in this league as a direct result of HGH.
Olympic Sprinters - Are any clean? Nope
Cyclists - Lance Armstrong wasn\'t juiced to win the Tour D\' France 7 times? Come on man!
Baseball - We know they\'re juiced. Bonds on Cow \'Roids. Nice. Giambi even pulled up his shirt in supreme court to show the hi-sheriff\'s where and how he stuck in the needle.
So I guess my point is...why bother trying to clean it up? It\'s all beyond control.
If I owned a racehorse, or a football franchise, I would encourage my trainer or my players to use juice if they wanted to. You simply can\'t win, or even compete in today\'s arena without drugs.
Sad but true
Oh I see. If there were a big crime wave and a lot of robberies going on, if I had children, I should therefore teach them to go out and steal.
There is such a thing as right and wrong, you know.
Finding an \"edge\", perhaps even a \"chemical edge\" has undoubtedly been going on for many years. However, there is a clear threat of public distrust in the game at a time when the fan base is stagnate at best and shrinking at worst. The powers that be risk a loss of trust if they do nothing. A similar loss of trust exists in Washington D.C. Are those losses of trust fatal or critical? Its hard to say, but regardless they are not positive. Those that can do the right thing had better take note of the situation. That goes for both Horseracing and Washington D.C.
Everyone around Lance Armstrong has made admissions, leveled charges or questioned his credibility. That loss of trust includes samples that were tested with new technology. Anyone notice that Lance Armstrong always sounds like a defense attorney? That is certainly not a positive,. However, we don\'t have to worry about losing a bet on Lance, unless we are foolish enough to believe his sports \"prowess\" makes him a good government servant.
Uncle Buck Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The entire modern sports world is on juice. Can
> you compete in any sport without juice? Hell no.
>
> Horses - some claimed for $50,000K run 120 Beyers
> on the juice, see Lava Man or any horse Dutrow
> runs.
> NFL Players - the league\'s drug testing policy
> can\'t detect HGH. Have you seen the size of these
> guys lately? Somebody is going to die soon in this
> league as a direct result of HGH.
> Olympic Sprinters - Are any clean? Nope
> Cyclists - Lance Armstrong wasn\'t juiced to win
> the Tour D\' France 7 times? Come on man!
> Baseball - We know they\'re juiced. Bonds on Cow
> \'Roids. Nice. Giambi even pulled up his shirt in
> supreme court to show the hi-sheriff\'s where and
> how he stuck in the needle.
>
>
> So I guess my point is...why bother trying to
> clean it up? It\'s all beyond control.
>
> If I owned a racehorse, or a football franchise, I
> would encourage my trainer or my players to use
> juice if they wanted to. You simply can\'t win, or
> even compete in today\'s arena without drugs.
>
> Sad but true
>
>
>
>
>
The point I was making is, unless the governing body of the sport, the NTRA, the NYRA, the CTBA or others get off their ass and enforce major penalties for trainers who cheat,like lifetime bans etc., what\'s the point of playing fair if you\'re a current horse owner? You can\'t win consistently unless you cheat in horse racing and all the other poisoned sports I mentioned. That\'s why I mentioned them
The last BIG crime wave we had was called Hurricane Katrina.
Remember the two photos and the captions under them accusing people of a certain \"ilk\" stealing food,while the \"other\" was just borrowing!
Anyway if you guys handicap half as good as me ...you\'d teach your kids to steal too!
Uncle Buck,
Thanks for clarifying your position. My point was that even if a lot of the cheaters get away with it, the authorities should still try to catch as many as they can. With horse racing there\'s an additional moral issue involved in addition to the cheating, in that unlike human atletes taking drugs and endangering their health at their own will, the horses have no such choice.
Bob
We are in the post-apathy stage w/ the juicing isssue , so what your saying is indeed sad but also equally ironic . The results are in and All of these juicers have seen and experienced the enormous downside from their actions .
Although Uncle Buck got off on the wrong foot, his second post was very much to the point.
The sad fact is that some major racing jusisdictions still believe in talking a good game but doing little to nail cheaters, because they really believe that if some famous trainers are caught, it will be bad for racing.
Nothing could be further from the truth, yet the folks that run racing still subscribes in large part to this b. s.
Until racing jurisdictions get serious police involved, like the FBI, catch cheaters with the goods and then prosecute the bad guys so hard that they are gone from the sport, nothing much will change.
Barry,
Amen to what you say. It\'s too bad, however,that the post that got Uncle Buck to clarify his position was not worthy of mention. I quess posts that deal with moral issues are \"uncool\" despite their good effects.
Local racing commisions are too afriad to offend their marque trainers to deal with cheaters properly. That\'s why we need the Justice Dept to do the job for which we pay taxes and go after the criminals - which these guys are.
Bob
dudez, the only way they are gonna do a dang thing about it is if YOU STOP BETTING.
any takers?
Boscar,
This conversations been had all to often on this board, and we rehash the same ole same ole, only every 30-45 days or so. The only way to get racing establishment to stop allowing the illegal druging of race horses, is for the masses to stop betting, but most of the us will not do that. I am in that camp.
Until the industry makes changes I wager knowing how the game is being played today.
Bobphilo, is the racing drug scandle really \"that bad\" that it makes the top 10 list of concerns of the FBI,State Dept, etc etc. I doubt it, especially in light that racing is \"a\" source of income to the states.
Racing - the hard core part of it anyway, is a mini subculture in America, and no one else really pays much attention to it.
NC Tony
Agreed, NCT, this thread sounds familiar.
But throughout the thread, no one has mentioned that the leading trainer in the US in number of wins over the last few years is currently serving a six month suspension. The reason that this suspension is not mentioned is that this trainer\'s operation continues to grind along in the names of assistant trainers who are no doubt in constant contact with their boss via phone, fax and email.
My point is that when the cheaters are identified, the punishments meted out have to be a little more Draconian, to use one of TGJB\'s favorite words.
I monitored with interest a previous exchange between you and Boscar; in that exchange, Boscar accused Shug McGaughey of using performance enhancing drugs. You quickly and properly pointed out that BO had made a fairly irresponsible allegation.
I have put Shug on my \"all clean\" team, certainly a man whose position with the Phipps family gives him access to great bloodlines (CTC may take exception to this) and the time necessary to develop his runners the old fashioned way.
To be fair however, I have noticed that a lot of Shug\'s horses have moved up dramatically in the past 3 months (of course I have not been reading TGs every racing day). Maybe someone at TG has been on top of this-- I guess I can check Shug\'s trainer stats off Good Reward\'s T-graph in the Redboard Room.
Baseball Note: All I have heard from some of my bartender friends lately is how much extra money they are going to make in October as the Mets and Yanks advance through the playoffs towards a Subway Series which everyone in NY is treating as a \"lock\".
But they play the games on the field, and imagine the emotional (and financial)devastation if both Mets and Yanks tank in the early stages,and we end up with a rematch of the 1984 World Series (Padres/Tigers).
Richie-
Sorry I missed you up at the SPA on twilight zone day.
First, I am not a SHUG apologist,agent, or fan club president for that matter..but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn express last night.... I can say with confidence, the man has been as consistent as the day is 24 hours. He does get BLUE CHIP stock, but his patterns are very predictable. The man gears his stable up for Saratoga, Belmont Fall, BC races, then he winds them down. His last 90 days are not much different than total history, more pair ups vs x\'s perhaps you might say. He has always spoted his horses well, unlike lets say DWayne.
Anyway, \"IF\" the big drug scandal does hit racing, and it does get\'s the national media attention, How many race tracks fall and shut down? Does the industry survive? Can it be done in a way to allow racing to survive? Will the zealots kill parimutuel wagering as a result? How bout PETA pickets?
All I say to \"you all\" is be careful what you wish for..you might not like to result.
The names may change from Generation to Generation, but the games, the drugs have always been part of this industry. What is newer to the game is the 2yo in training sales, who have those babies look so roided out at such a young age so they can run out of there skin a reap a quick return on investment. We really get down on trainers on this site, but what about those oh so reputable Breeders?
Oops now we can\'t go there
NC Tony
To say that the only way to stop illegal drugging of horses is for everyone to stop betting is like saying the only way to stop muggings is to keep people from going out of their houses. Juicing is both a crime of fraud and abuse of animals for which we have a Dept of Justice to deal with. Considering the millions of dollars racing generates and the effects of what happens on the track to the even bigger breeding industry argues against the position that the problem is too "small potatoes" to interest law enforcement.
As for the effects of some kind of bettor boycott, While everyone must make their own moral choices, I personally would have no trouble playing one track less that was guilty of the worst derelictions of duty with regard to the protection of horses and public. It's sad that the suffering and risk to both horses and riders is of no concern to some that would not even make the most meager sacrifice to protect their profits earned by the misery of others.
Bob
NCT:
Good point about Shug. He was virtually shut out in Florida, gained momentum at Aqueduct and seemed to peak late at the Spa.
All we need to know about twilight zone day is that in the late P3 I had Dr. Bloomer ($30) in leg 1, Inca is Calling (?) ($15)in the 3rd Leg, and ran 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th in the With Anticipation Stakes (2nd leg), losing to a Hushion maiden. As Steve Serby used to say in the NY Post \"and thats why they call me Mr. Loser\"
richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I have put Shug on my \"all clean\" team, certainly
> a man whose position with the Phipps family gives
> him access to great bloodlines (CTC may take
> exception to this) and the time necessary to
> develop his runners the old fashioned way.
If they all trained like Shug, we\'d have far fewer worries. The Phipps Band still has what is probably the best batch of mares in America. I was never enamored with how many times they sent them to Danzig, Mr. Prospector and Storm Cat though.
This one has some of the that questionable breeding, but shes also got some breeding to compensate for it. Mr. Prospector is a better influence diluted. Never liked him as the sire, but as a grandsire or more remote he can help a pedigree.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/pine+island
Dear Bob,
I am personally tired of your lame and useless analogies. Always making the extreme assertions if A then B must also be true. GIVE ME A BREAK.
Please stop talking out of both sides of your mouth BOB.I do not want horses HURT nor JOCKEYS hurt. For you to insinuate that is offensive to me.
Racing is SMALL POTATOES on the national scale, something you just can\'t accept. It has niche TV spots, Niche Radio spots, and rare newspaper coverage. If it wasn\'t for the Derby and BC, and Barbaro\'s injury of all things, to get national exposure for racing.
IF YOU HAVE FACTS ABOUT ILLEGAL DRUGGING of horses which could lead to potential injury to horses and jockey\'s, HERE IS ELLIOT SPITZERS ADDRESS TO WRITE TO: http://www.oag.state.ny.us/contact.html
Provide him all your details and facts that you have.
Me thinks, if you want to get someone attention, at least in THIS GAME,take their money away.That is the only way bettors can make a statement to the various racing circuits etc. So write your attorney general but he would need facts to work with, he can\'t prosecute inuendo.If it was that blatant or aggregious, you would think someone down the line who\'s has worked for the \"guilty trainers\" would have written a book, or sold the story for money. Hey maybe call that dateline guy who does the online predator stuff and get him on the case too.
If you\'re really offended don\'t support the product.
Since I choose to continue to wager, I undestand the current platform. I don\'t have facts as some on this board obviously do. If you got the data do the right thing.
NC Tony
Jeez Tony,
I read Bob\'s post and he merely made a point that some do care and he outlined a strategy for cleaning up crooked jurisdictions. How can one argue or attack that? I won\'t bet Turfway or Keeneland again because of poly nonsense. Why not apply that betting discipline to juice jurisdicitions?
NoCarolinaTony Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dear Bob,
>
> I am personally tired of your lame and useless
> analogies. Always making the extreme assertions if
> A then B must also be true. GIVE ME A BREAK.
>
> Please stop talking out of both sides of your
> mouth BOB.I do not want horses HURT nor JOCKEYS
> hurt. For you to insinuate that is offensive to
> me.
>
> Racing is SMALL POTATOES on the national scale,
> something you just can\'t accept. It has niche TV
> spots, Niche Radio spots, and rare newspaper
> coverage. If it wasn\'t for the Derby and BC, and
> Barbaro\'s injury of all things, to get national
> exposure for racing.
>
> IF YOU HAVE FACTS ABOUT ILLEGAL DRUGGING of
> horses which could lead to potential injury to
> horses and jockey\'s, HERE IS ELLIOT SPITZERS
> ADDRESS TO WRITE TO:
>
> Provide him all your details and facts that you
> have.
>
>
> Me thinks, if you want to get someone attention,
> at least in THIS GAME,take their money away.That
> is the only way bettors can make a statement to
> the various racing circuits etc. So write your
> attorney general but he would need facts to work
> with, he can\'t prosecute inuendo.If it was that
> blatant or aggregious, you would think someone
> down the line who\'s has worked for the \"guilty
> trainers\" would have written a book, or sold the
> story for money. Hey maybe call that dateline guy
> who does the online predator stuff and get him on
> the case too.
>
> If you\'re really offended don\'t support the
> product.
>
> Since I choose to continue to wager, I undestand
> the current platform. I don\'t have facts as some
> on this board obviously do. If you got the data do
> the right thing.
>
>
> NC Tony
>
>
>
Ctc,
Thats what I am saying- apply the same betting diciplne to juicing jurisdictions and the loss of money might get someone attention.
NC Tony
Ctc,
I will play Polytrack tracks. I don\'t see much difference, and I do see that the TG numbers hold up well at TP. You do need to watch it for a while and that may be astute on your part, but taking yesterday as an example, TP figs held well and with value (for the most part).
NC Tony
Ladies and Gents:
NCT puts into words,what I\'ve always wish I could say in correspondence.
There was a time when I bet all venues that had a decent size handle.
Today,I only wager on the more \"important\" races.
For racing to clean up,and the gambler to stop betting, is ludicrous.
Laws have never stopped the cheating,rather it would escalate the take-out where we would be cheating ourselves.
NoCarolinaTony Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Ctc,
>
> I will play Polytrack tracks. I don\'t see much
> difference, and I do see that the TG numbers hold
> up well at TP. You do need to watch it for a while
> and that may be astute on your part, but taking
> yesterday as an example, TP figs held well and
> with value (for the most part).
>
> NC Tony
>
>
Understanding that Grass racing is the origin of the game, I am a dirt traditionalist. Dirt racing is American and I\'m a horseracing Patriot. There's a lot more to it than that, but thats saying enough for a quick explanation.
I\'ve also lost in my Polytrack forays. Remember the winner of the Lane\'s End last year? I couldn\'t have come up with that horse if my life depended upon it. Now, it just so happens that Eastern polytrack is synonymous with one of Horse racings more crooked juicing jurisdictions and by foregoing Polytrack in Kentucky, I\'m killing two birds with one stone. (Note that Lane's End winner was offered for 50K shares immediately after the race and is now Dead. Last I heard, they didn't know why he died. Granted they are strawberries, but I'm skeptical.)
I also don't want to take the time to make monopoly money wagers on Polytrack. It's principle. It's Patriotism.
Racing does not need more laws, it needs supertesting, stiff enforcement penalties, forfeiture of assets and jail time.
Tony,
I understand your feelings re poly but I won\'t be betting on that surface until I am very comfortable. That may never happen.I\'ve posted before but believe me there are many whales that will NOT be putting their money on poly racing.
NYRA is the only venue that I know which is carefully navigating the poly issue.The excuse about safety is more a ruse by racetrack operators. Breakdowns will be far less if they stop allowing animals to be pumped full of illegal stuff that gives them a utopian feeling as they rip their bodies up without sensing it.
If poly can be made to mirror dirt somehow, then it would be ok. I don\'t know if that\'s possible or even being contemplated.Many horsemen have told me that they just don\'t know how a horse will hit, plant, expand on that stuff. Horsemen who have trained and raced on it give it a thumbs up and some love it.
Mike
Ctc and Miff,
I do truly understand the traditionalist and comfort zone of staying with what you know vis a vis the unknown.It is your money after all, and you\'ve got to do what you feel is best for yourself.
I\'ve been taping and watching the TP replays last year and so far this year trying to find any trends,correlations etc.
Again and maybe I\'m wrong here, but since they Powers that be,especially the likes of KEENELAND and SOCAL are all going \"Snythetic\" or poly derivative (two of the top 4 major circuits), have already made the radical jump to poly, I might as well \"bone up on it\" as opposed to declaring it persona non grata.
So with that being said, I\'ll be at Keeneland Opening day, risking life,limb, a few bettor dollars and straining my eyes on some of the UK ladies that attend the meet. If I could only write what I saw last year there...
Seriously I think the opening week at Keeneland there will be a lot of money bet on the old Keeneland Bias out of of stubborn habit, or people betting simulcast money forgetting KEE went poly early on, and find a few overlays early on in the meet. MAYBE I am being too optimistic.
NC Tony
http://opinions.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=35286
Bob-- with all due respect, that outfit and their rules are besides the point. There are rules in place now. Until samples are being frozen and CO2 levels published (just for starters), nobody is serious about nothing.
Just a different point of view ....
http://www.drf.com/drfNewsArticle.do?NID=78657
NC Tony
richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Baseball Note: All I have heard from some of my
> bartender friends lately is how much extra money
> they are going to make in October as the Mets and
> Yanks advance through the playoffs towards a
> Subway Series which everyone in NY is treating as
> a \"lock\".
>
> But they play the games on the field, and imagine
> the emotional (and financial)devastation if both
> Mets and Yanks tank in the early stages,and we end
> up with a rematch of the 1984 World Series
> (Padres/Tigers).
First talk about West Coast 2YOs winning the BC, next possibly the NY teams not making the WS???? Richie, are you OK??
Life does exist west of the Mississippi. I know many East Coasters don\'t like to be bothered with us out here. If you\'re out in the Bay Area next month, maybe I\'ll take you to Gm 1 of the Series. Pitching and defense still count for something. Hopefully against the Mets, since JB loves them ( not to mention he loves \"The Shield\" too.)
Tony,
Very well, since analogies are over your head, I will put it to you in simple direct terms that even you can understand. Juicing trainers are racing horses on the verge of breaking down with painkillers that enable them to dangerously run through the pain which nature designed to save their lives. In other words they are sending out living time bombs, risking the lives of both them and their jockeys. I personally know someone who rescues and adopts retired racers whose bodies and legs have been ravaged by the drug use you so naively defend. I wish you would stop your minimizing the effects of such practices until you see these poor creatures.
Of course any time money is involved, there will always be scum that will stop at nothing for an unfair advantage. How you can conclude from this that any attempt to stop, or at least minimize this, is a mistake is beyond me. But then I forget, you feel you've found a way to profit from it, so it's alright.
Every time a concerned poster calls for something to be done about this you ridicule or vilify them. What's worse, rather than proposing or supporting a solution you come out against any attempt to stop this immoral activity, you actively oppose any such intervention and arrogantly state that you are "having fun" with the way things are now. By all means, let's cease all attempts to shut down these bastards since we all know that all that matters is your how much fun you have in cashing in on these evil practices. Shame.
Bob
Jerry,
Understood. I just felt that, given the hands off defeatist philosophy towards drug use advocated by some of the posters, it was appropriate to post another view calling for at least an attempt to recognize and deal with this problem.
The details of how this is best done is a legitimate matter of debate.
Bob
Chuckles,
Thanks for having both the intelligence and moral sense of getting the point of my post. Apparently, ignorance of the dangerous effects of performance enhancing drugs is a convenient excuse for some to vilify those that understand the evil that the use of such substances truly is. Funny how those that claim to not get it are the very ones bragging about how well they\'re doing by incorporating their knowledge of juicing trainers into their betting?
Bob
Bob
Maybe Mr Oxley should use a different trainer.
NC Tony
Bob,
I am sure you\'re a good guy. In response to your most eloquent post, I wrote quite a few responses to you, only to delete them over and over. I don\'t want another BOB\"PHILO\" war with you as even I can tell, I am clearly out of your intellectual league, (IE you are the Yankees or Secretariat and I am the Kanapolis Intimidators or anything trained by John Candlin).
You clearly don\'t want to understand my point.
I sincerely do not want to have horses hurt or worse, nor do I want to see jockey\'s hurt or worse. I know that drugs and Shaking, and fixing are all still part of the culture. It\'s been there for decades, no more now then before, and I use the inuendo information, when I wager, to asses the propects of a horse of a \"suspected Drug Trainer\" period!!! When it comes to racing I am a realist not an idealist. So if that is shameful, I can sleep at night.
The policing part belong to the authorities, the racing commisions, the NTRA, and the Breeders. It seems those in power have no interest of increasing or better yet improving testing, or providing meaningful information such as Co2 levels or Vet information. The only Power that a schlock bettor has is to not bet or bet elshwere. Protest the \"BAD JURISDICTIONS\" by Moving the Dollars. Not sure bettors have much more influence than that. I think the offshore rebate shops got some attention of the commisions. In there defense, the powers that be, do seem to want to improve running conditions for horses by modifying the racing surfaces around North America. (perhaps an overreaction only time will tell).
It is also my opinion that many on here who villify trainers about drug use are really no more than whining about bad handicapping, bad training or trainers and really what amounts to nothing more. They use the excuse drugs as a poor excuse for their bad capping. It may make them feel good or sound good. Howver, PLEASE if you really feel that strongly about the issue, DO SOMETHING. If you \"REALLY\" have the \"inside dope\" rather than whine on this or any board, report it. I\'m sure there are more effective places to do it than this microculture of the racing community. Bob, you sound more like an animal lover than many of these other whiners, just to make it clear.
Good Luck with your social cause. What is your plan of action? Any luck with Spitzers office?
I don\'t really ever like to shy from a good public debate, but in this case I am dropping it from this public forum. I thought this was a handicapping forum and not a social issues forum. If you want to discuss this further, my email address is public.
NC Tony
Good post Tony, i feel the same way as you do.
Whats going on behind the scenes in racing is a shame. I can\'t imagine anyone would condone such behavior. BUT. As a horseplayer, all i can do is either bet on winners or not bet period. Cleaning up the game is not the responsibility of the horseplayers, its the responsibilities of the people who are policing the racetracks and the people who are policing the game, whoever they are.
I bet on these races knowing they are tainted. I factor \'taint\' into my handicapping. I wish they were not tainted, but what can i do? I have to handicap all the information at my disposal. Drugs are just one more \'handicapping angle\' to factor in. Hopefully one day i won\'t have to factor this in at all.
nct , If your calling Bob a Yankee Fan - that is a low blow ...
I try not to assume too much when handicapping and suppose that puts me into as many as it takes away . But guessing who\'s doing what , when , where , why etc seems like it might be less estute than attempting to predict exactly within fractions of a point - trip and ground loss senarios in a crowded turf field but then again , I did wear the tools of ignorance back in my Baseball day\'s ...
Who Is Oxley ?
Marcus
Don\'t know who his Baseball team allegence is with, just an analogy so nothing intentional.
Drugs is not the primary consideration when handicapping, but a consideration, and usually all that history is built into thoro patterns and trainer patterns already. Only meaningful when it\'s in the claiming game like going from low % trainer (like John Candlin) to a Scott Lake or Dutrow, Assmussen/BLasi, Cole Norman, Jeff Mullins, Drug O\'neill, Mike Mitchell. The other famous guys don\'t play the claiming game.
Mr Oxley Owned or Owns Horses such luninaries like Manarchos, Sky Mesa, - Strong Contender, Dr. Pleasure etc. It\'s ironic that his trainer (John Ward and His wife, seems to be an an exclusive) usually has them ready to run early and flatten out after 2-3 races. A very similar pattern to many of the so called juice trainers, but I would not put him in that category simply because he has them ready early. His horses for whatever reason usually seem to get hurt. With the caliber of stock he has to run, a little bit of an under achiever.
NC Tony
NC Tony - I see what your saying about T - Pattern\'s + Claiming + Oxley , Thanks ...
Some of these racing topics of discussions can be emotionally volitile and what is said can come out ( or
be interpeted ) wrong sometimes - I know becouse I\'m usually the one saying it ... - marcus
NCT:
Your response to Bobphilo was well reasoned and well presented. Your Jesuit mentors would be proud, even though we might have to tell them that your interest in racing is mathematical, and not pari- mutuel.
Cant believe you took a shot at John Candlin. (If he had trained Lassie, Timmy wouldn\'t have lived through the first episode.) I have always thought it would be interesting to take 10 of his horses and give them to Dutrow or Pletcher for 3 months and see what result. Maybe TVG, which does an awful job of covering racing (as Beyer said,TVG hosts are the last people in America to find out that a horse has been scratched or that a race has been taken off the turf), could do this as a reality show.
The Lassie bit is pretty funny.
Richiebee,
You could give Candlin\'s stock to the Lord and they would not win.Unimaginably ill-bred, crooked looking NY bred slow rats and filly snails.
On the other hand, Rick Dutrow is a better trainer than the Lord, so I guess he would win with them.After all, remember someone posted here that Rick uses better feed, better blacksmiths, better vets, etc.That explains it!
Mike
Miff:
You and I had an exchange regarding Dutrow back in March of 05 on this board. I will still stand by the following, that Dutrow, Pletcher and Frankel are in a position to provide their stock with the best of everything-- feed, farrier, vet, equine dentist, help (especially exercise riders). Even with their alleged undetectable advantage, the fact that these trainer\'s horses enjoy \"the best of everything\" should never be discounted. Not to mention that these trainers are allowed to rest their stock when necessary.
I am not naive Miff. I worked in Kentucky in the early 80s. A couple of the trainers I worked for would love to ship from Churchill to River or Latonia simply because it gave them a minute or two with their horse in a rest stop off of the interstate, away from prying eyes.
I will reiterate, without trying to reopen debate, that (a) the \"usual suspects\" win percentage has not been greatly affected since the implementation of pre-race detention; (b)high volume, high win percentage trainers\' horses undergo more POST - race tests than horses from lower impact barns and (c)the 2 high profile suspensions in the past year (Dutrow/Pletcher) have not really involved performance enhancing drugs.
Absolutely agree that the horses of the usual suspects are enjoying some sort of veterinary/pharmaceutical/ nutritional edge, and that the regulatory bodies responsible for detection and enforcement are badly overmatched. Add this to the fact that these barns are coddled by the Racing Office (stall allocations, races written for)and have access to the best bloodstock, it IS kind of amazing that they are, in general, BEATEN 75% of the time.
Part 2 of the Candlin Reality Show. Part 1 was give Dutrow or Pletcher 10 of Candlin\'s horses for 3 months. Part 2 would be to give 10 of Candlin\'s horses to Oscar S. Barrera or Pistol Pete Ferriola or Gasper Moschera for 3 WEEKS.
Rich,
Don\'t want to open a thread that goes on forever. I am close to several non-super trainers that have wealthy owners. These trainers have carte blanche regarding expenditure for the things you mention.They also have good quality/bred stock. They are very good experienced horsemen(1 Hall of Famer)
They have not been able to accomplish anything close to Ricks results perennially, all things considered. I have no idea what Rick does to be as successful as he is but I would wager all that I own that it is not ONLY the very important things you have listed.
I\'m not even hinting that you are naive.I have observed the move ups of horses visually and with TG.On the east coast,Dutrow is peerless.Pletcher has an annual replenishment of top quality babies and I do not find his results to be abnormal given that fact.Frankel, same as Pletcher, to an extent.
I do not think that Pletcher or Frankel are in Dutrows league, all things made equal.I do not consider Dutrows stock to be quite in the same league with many other trainers.Only recently, Dutrow has begun to have some expensive stock sent to him.
Unless he is caught, you are correct to assume that his methodology is superior to all others except that I know others do the same things with much less success.How can that be?
Mike
Until we have both transparency (good comments by Hovedy on this a couple of weeks ago) and serious attempts to catch people, conversations about this are at the same level as Mantle vs. Mays (at least for all those not measuring things with real data-- Miff\'s point about watching certain trainers get large groups of horses to move up on TG is on point). We need vets listed on the program, CO2 levels published, and samples frozen, just for starters.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Until we have both transparency (good comments by
> Hovedy on this a couple of weeks ago) and serious
> attempts to catch people, conversations about this
> are at the same level as Mantle vs. Mays (at least
> for all those not measuring things with real
> data-- Miff\'s point about watching certain
> trainers get large groups of horses to move up on
> TG is on point). We need vets listed on the
> program, CO2 levels published, and samples frozen,
> just for starters.
Once again, for coincidence\'s sake, what do Todd Pletcher, Bobby Frankel and Rick Dutrow all have in common and precisely when did they become so formidable on the graded stakes scene? After answering that one accurately, lets talk some more about the quality of their stock and the good hay, oats and water they get.
Mantle was the phenom, Mays the Durable One.
Richie and Miff -
You guys are a lot closer to the business than I am, so you may be able to answer a question that\'s been puzzling me. Given the far-flung operations of some of the suspect trainers and the number of employees that presumably pass through their barns, how do they keep what they\'re doing a secret? To achieve consistent results, the suspect trainers would need to apply their methods on a regular basis, so it seems unlikely that it\'s something that they do personally or that\'s done by a single vet. You would expect that at some point a competing trainer or disgruntled employee would blow the whistle.
Bit
My Point exactly. It\'s not like their entire employee base is flush with cash. You would think a bribe, a payoff for a story etc would have all been explored by now. And with all of the benefits of the Patriot act in play, they could have cought someone by now.They found those guys in NJ using EPO. Guess it\'s a matter of desire.
While traditionalist would like to believe this, I doubt they ever had entire fields that just ran on hay oats and water alone for decades at least since the 60\'s and probably further back than that, when they didn\'t test at all.
NC Tony
Bit,
A good question and a puzzler.The scrutiny on certain trainers in NY is intense.Equally puzzling is that there are really no \"secrets\" on what one can legally do with a horse. The results achieved by a handful of trainers defy common sense and logic when measured against conventional horse racing results over many years.Over the years we\'ve have seen the new boot,breathing nebulizers, hyperbolic (sp) chambers and on and on.Give me a break, nothing works so many times.The idea that a few trainers have found the \"key\" to training is absurd.The idea that no one has dropped a dime is also absurd, I agree.
A successful owner with a supertrainer told me that \"time\" was the key. He explained that his horses only ran when they were as \"right\" as could be and he never pressures his trainer to race his horses like other owners often do.He intimated that I would find that to be the case with most so called supertrainers then named Frankel, Pletcher, Mott?? and Dutrow.So, spacing is everything?
A Vet at the Spa defended the new supertrainers as both innovative and technologically more savvy than the old school guys.She proceeded to list things and equipment. The problem is that MANY trainers use those same aides and do not come close to achieving what the supertrainers do, with comparable stock. How come?
There is no doubt that some underachieving trainers use the drug thing to deflect criticism from their owners but when Hall of Fame guys whisper about juicing, I defer.I am no longer certain who is a good horseman. I now just concentrate on who wins and who don\'t.
Unless they catch people,those who argue that certain guys are just better trainers are right and I\'m wrong.I could ramble on about this but it\'s not about the TG product so I won\'t.
Mike
Miff
One thing the supertrainers have is numbers. Since about half of the horses stabled at a track are maidens, and three quarters of the horses have won once only, most of the races are for these types. The supertrainers always have a horse that \"fits\".
A solid approach I use is look for supertrainers without large stables. In NY, Kimmel,Tagg, Bond, Dickinson et. al., are terriffic conditioners who win their fair share and offer value.
TG offers many useful trainer stats. BBB
Nice try.
And cute, too.
But riduculous.
Can you elaborate on that some...as to why? Why just because you say so is a little lame don\'t you think?
Nc Tony
I like Steve Crist and appreciate everything he has done for the betterment of DRF.
But I think his column may be a case of figures don\'t lie, but liars figure.
First of all, his analysis does not deal with cheating or cheaters.
A lot of what he pointed out has some merit.
But the reason Charlie Whittingham had a low win percentage was not based on the fact that he trained a lot of homebreds for breeders, but what he did with those homebreds. Charlie Whittingham (and he was not alone by any stretch of the imagination, had a habit of using these animals to set up betting coups. Charlie, like a lot of oldtimers, would have his youngsters held until he wanted them exposed, an event that usually coincided with a bet he was making.
Charlie could justify the holding of horses as \"schooling,\" so that when they were finally let loose and won, they would be ready to advance to the next level. God forbid Whittingham should ever allow a horse to win first time out and force it to run against winners before it had been properly seasoned.
I will never forget the day Whittingham shocked the Southern California racing community when he won first with two first-time starting fillies at Hollywood Park.
Racing has changed from those days. A guy like Todd Pletcher wants to win first time out. Why? Because ever since DRF started publishing trainer stats, all trainers want to have high win percentages. It happens to be good for business.
Also, today\'s game is more about development of horses and winning and making money with purses, not about holding horses and cashing bets.
Except, of course, for those outfits in which the owners are pure gamblers and their trainers are supplied with illegal performance enhancing designer drugs to insure spectacular results.
The magic continues to be worked in New York and California, and Texas, and in the Bay Area by expert practitioners of the black arts.
But one of these day--and I personally hope I live long enough to see it--the FBI will get their act together, start focusing on racing because it involves inter-state gambling, and close out the cheaters.
Then some of them can go back to harness racing where they belong.
As Edward Gibbons has pointed out in his momumental work, \'The Decline and Fall of the Racing Empire,\" the noble Sport of Kings could not have been plundered and pillaged by the one armed bandits and casino sharpies of the day if a once eager reformer who ran the most prominent information outlet of the day had not allowed his publication to become overbloated and stagnant, complacent and complicit.
That if he had used the bully pulpit to call for reforms or at least thorough investigations to put an end to all the corrosive speculation surrounding the industry he could have prevented the bulldozers at the gate from having their way.
Instead he chose to be an appeaser, knowing that his own financial interests were best served by serving the establishment rather than advocating for the best interest of his readership.
Such is the way of all flash.
Barry,
I noticed that you did not mention Kentucky and Florida as places where the \"magic\" takes place. I am pure New York and was just wondering if you were just naming a few venues or you purposely left out Kentucky and Florida.
Only hearsay, but Kentucky is lengendary for illegal stuff too, no?
Mike
Gents,
Now we may be getting somewhere here, provided what is discussed is true and sincere. Anything else would be a waste.
Thanks for being open Barry.
NC Tony
IT\'s not \"just\" drugs that ailes this industry. It goes much deeper than just drugs.
Doesn\'t mean I still can\'t enjoy plaing the sport despite all of that. Crist does bring up some interesting pieces of data that never seem to be discussed either. It is closing in from both sides. Someone better wake up pretty soon otherwise the game I enjoy playing may not be around as long as I hope to be able to play it.
Who really runs racing?
Wish I didn\'t enjoy the puzzle so much.
NC Tony
Wishful thinking....enhancement drugs and blood doping in racing are not going away. In fact they are leading the way. Far in advance of the detection side of things. Many serious players now prefer to use trainer angles{drug angles} than any other form of handicapping. Way too much money to be gained by vets, trainers, owners and the race tracks and not enough to lose should the cheaters get caught. The rewards outweigh the risks. Until that is changed...the whining and the articles that appear in racing publications every four or five months will not do a darn thing to change the status quo.
Tony-- too busy to get into a long conversation about this, but you raise a crucial question.: who runs the racing industry. The answer is, the tail wags the dog.
The breeding industry is in actuality a seperate industry. The better they do (higher prices), the worse for those in the industry (higher cost of doing business). Yet, take a look at the make-up of the NTRA/Breeder\'s Cup/TOBA, the closest things we have to national organizations with any clout. They are extremely loaded with Kentuckians, either breeders or those closely aligned with them (grew up with, went to school with them).
Then there\'s the issue of oversight jobs, licenses, etc., being given out on a patronage basis, not on merit, by the states.
What drives decisions in this business are things that have nothing to do with the success of the business itself or the welfare of those involved in it. Which is why the business has gone in the crapper.
I\'m a Libertarian. But if there was ever an industry that cried out for Federal oversight it\'s this one-- to protect the interests of the bettors in the same way the government protects stockholders.
Alternatively, there is this, which I brought up 15 years ago-- a national organization representing bettors. Several here have mentioned how a short boycott a few years ago changed things-- imagine what an organized effort could accomplish.
bush justice dept? if they got involved they would be more likely to ban the sport than clean it up. fbi? did they catch the anthrax dude yet? head of the taliban?
congress? they tried horse slaughter, sent the wrong friggin bill to the floor, and have now scrapped the whole deal until next year. think they are passing any meaningful legislation to protect bettors?
best bet is state prosecutors, but unless you get a NYT front page type scandal, it\'s unlikely enough funds are heading in this direction.
it\'s just not that important to the average guy out there.
Federal oversight--I agree totally.
It is the only way to have any sort of cohesiveness the sport so desperately requires to move forward.
First we need Hoovers men to clean the carpet (how\'s that for a double metaphor?).
Check out Bloodhorse article on Jocks insurance. www.bloodhorse.com
\"The bill also includes a federal prohibition against entering horses into races that have been administered anabolic steroids of any kind. Steroids cause dramatic muscle mass increases in horses, which can damage ligaments that weaken a horse\'s foundation. Whitfield said the provision was included to improve racing safety and reduce the number of catastrophic accidents that happen on the track\"
This bill was about covering jocks insurance and look what found it\'s way in.All the major barns are steroid city, WOW!!
Mike,
surprise, surprise.
opposition.
http://drf.com/news/article/78943.html
http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=35444
This is sounding a lot more interesting out in CALI as compared to hearing nothing like this on the east coast.
NC Tony
\"Every trainer who has gone into the detention barn has had their horses drop in TCO2 levels,\" Arthur said, \"and this includes the trainers who said they have no idea how the substance got into the horse\'s system.\"
lol.
You know, the J.J. Graci Internet radio show (Attheracesandbeyond) has Dr. Allday on as a guest about once a week. If you\'ve ever listened to the show, you know that they\'ll take callers at any time, even in the middle of interviews with guests. Calling in to ask Dr. Allday a few pointed questions won\'t accomplish anything, but it might be interesting to hear the answers...on second thought, it would probably just be depressing...
Just some questions.
Wasn\'t Allday the vet attending to SECOND OF JUNE??
And didn\'t the horse shatter the same ankle that he injured several years ago in the FOY @ Gulfstream??
Was the Woodward the first time Allday was involved with this horse???
Good Luck,
Joe B.
SECOND OF JUNE was a White Mercedes production of a Bill Cesare film... when the colt was a 2 yr. old through to the Fountain of Youth Stakes the following year, when the poor steroided animal suffered a condylar fracture of the cannon bone. Steroids effect bone.