Ask the Experts

General Category => Ask the Experts => Topic started by: TGJB on June 18, 2006, 05:48:01 PM

Title: "Overlay at 1-9"
Post by: TGJB on June 18, 2006, 05:48:01 PM
Check out Friedman\'s post giving out a Father\'s Day play at Monmouth, and the result of the race.

On the batch/rebate stuff, more tomorrow when I have time. But for starters, getting a rebate does not directly affect the results of anyone not getting one (meaning it does not come from the other players), and batch betting software can\'t help anyone whose handicapping (as opposed to betting strategy) would not be good enough to show a profit without it-- as certain individuals who used to post here found out, I believe.
Title: Re: "Overlay at 1-9"
Post by: congaree1 on June 19, 2006, 03:20:12 AM
Cool, kinda like the race of the week analysis, one horse hit the board.
Title: Re: "Overlay at 1-9"
Post by: marcus on June 19, 2006, 06:38:24 AM
i can\'t recall , did they bring the mountain to mohammed or did he go to it ? can len come on to the TG site and tell us exactly what he thought happend ?
Title: Re: "Overlay at 1-9"
Post by: TGJB on June 19, 2006, 10:41:51 AM
Cong-- not exactly, but that\'s okay. We said to play AGAINST the two favorites, both of whom ran out, not ON a 2/5 shot (who would be \"an overlay at 1-9\"), that got beat 15 lengths. Granted, we did not like the 91-1 shot, but you know what? If we had, he wouldn\'t have paid $185.
Title: Re: "Overlay at 1-9"
Post by: congaree1 on June 19, 2006, 02:03:05 PM
Whatever!!
Title: Re: "Overlay at 1-9"
Post by: bellsbendboy on June 19, 2006, 03:04:33 PM
Personally, I thought the analysis here at TG, for the Foster was very good. The authors\' intent was to describe a race with more questions than answers. I wish whoever it was; did all the ROTW analysis.

The Foster was a TOTAL meltdown, that few predicted. The final fraction (1/8) was a very slow 13:21.  How slow was it?

Other final eighths: Stake 12.98,  Maiden 13:43, Maiden 12:30, nw3L (f) 12.89
       
      final sixteenths:  Stake 6.47,  nw2L 6.27 starter allowance 10K 6.78

The rail was quicksand, after \"conditioning\" earlier in the day.

Since I am on a roll, I predict, the fifth race winner ran the faster TG figure EVER for a maiden, at a mile or over.

And as far as rebates \"taxing\" me, a smaller player, all it does is redirect me from the pick 6 to the pick 4.  I can \'cap with them but they out capital me. I say let them play, if its good for the tracks, its good for the game! BBB
Title: Re: "Overlay at 1-9"
Post by: NoCarolinaTony on June 19, 2006, 07:03:57 PM
BBB

I agree with you...Good point about the rebate big boys...Every now and then we can get their money too

NC Tony
Title: Re: "Overlay at 1-9"
Post by: colin on June 20, 2006, 09:21:47 AM
for a veteran horseplayer like myself, I find it hard to beleive any of us can be critical of Len Friedman\'s handicapping. The guy is great. I use Thorograph because I like the numbers better but every time Len or Jerry take time out to go over a race for free it adds value to all of their customers. We all call races completely wrong from time to time. Let\'s try to keep that in mind. Happy Hunting E
Title: Re: "Overlay at 1-9"
Post by: asfufh on June 20, 2006, 09:37:13 AM
BBB wrote \"\"And as far as rebates \"taxing\" me, a smaller player, all it does is redirect me from the pick 6 to the pick 4. I can \'cap with them but they out capital me. I say let them play, if its good for the tracks, its good for the game! BBB\"\"\'

There is no problem with rebates per se. Casinos give comps to their loyal and bigger players all the time and good luck to them. In fact, the tracks ought to be giving the rebates directly to the players not the off track sites.
In horse racing, the problem is when rebates are combined with unfair advantages like electronic access to tote pools that enable players using CRW to squeeze out a overall profit percentage (that can add up the substantial amounts over time) by using the real time info in the track\'s pools to compute their wagers and then fire off almost instantaneous bets directly into the track\'s pool just before the pool closes (i.e. know the \"final\" odds just before they bet).
As I mentioned in an other post, if you play Texas Hold\'em, CRW is akin to having the \"button\" (being the dealer) for *every* hand instead of the normal rotation of the \"button\" to each player. The dealer has a recognized substantial advantage (i.e. late position) because he is the last to bet in every betting round in a given hand (i.e. he knows what all other players have done when it is his/her turn to bet). The same advantage exists in CRW and the track\'s should do something to fix it.
Asfufh


 
Asfufh


Title: Jerry?
Post by: diamond-joe on June 21, 2006, 04:53:08 PM
  Could you post this race so we could see how the favorite looked?

      Thank you.
Title: Re: Jerry?
Post by: TGAB on June 21, 2006, 05:31:03 PM
Here it is. The favorite was the most likely winner, but not \"an overlay at 1-9\", since he was spotting serious weight. This is aside from the issue of giving out horses where all we know is what the public knows, at very short prices.
Title: !!!!!!!
Post by: diamond-joe on June 21, 2006, 05:40:51 PM
   Damn! That horse was fast!!
Title: Re: Jerry?
Post by: tmon on June 21, 2006, 06:01:37 PM
I assume there is some reason this horse wasn\'t claimed off of Dutrow for $50,000 earlier this year?
Title: Re: unclaimed
Post by: diamond-joe on June 21, 2006, 06:24:06 PM
   Some people really hate to claim fast horses, because if they run away they are very hard to catch.
Title: Question
Post by: diamond-joe on June 21, 2006, 07:10:48 PM
   Looks like 6 of his last 12 races were 0 or better. How often has anyone seen a horse like this?
Title: Re: Jerry?
Post by: marcus on June 22, 2006, 07:02:51 AM
difficult to say what the race looked like on rags , based on the TG #\'s that Al posted , that horse is indeed remarkable - but  a caution sign goes up when evaluating the pattern .  
Title: Re: unclaimed
Post by: TGJB on June 22, 2006, 09:38:36 AM
DJ-- so you would have (or did) go down with Friedman on the horse at 2/5?

Tmon-- people don\'t claim off Dutrow because they know they won\'t get the same efforts. And that\'s one of the problems in taking a short price on one of his horses-- what if he didn\'t move them up that day? (And by the way, take a look at what his last fast track effort was).
Title: Re: unclaimed
Post by: diamond-joe on June 22, 2006, 05:35:37 PM
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> DJ-- so you would have (or did) go down with
> Friedman on the horse at 2/5?
>


   I\'m sorry, I\'m sure you\'re talking to me but I don\'t know what you\'re responding to. I didn\'t play that day at all. I don\'t know what he looked like on The Sheets, but he looks like a freak on Thorograph, if you were looking for my opinion. I don\'t play horses at those prices unless I think I\'ve got a bomb to hook them up with, but based on the race posted here, I probably wouldn\'t have expected him to be beat by 15. What was your opinion of him before the race?


Title: Re: unclaimed
Post by: TGJB on June 22, 2006, 06:15:53 PM
DJ-- as I\'ve said before about this, he was the most likely winner (meaning more likely than any other horse), but not a bet at a short price, let alone an \"overlay at 1-9\". I looked, in fact, to check the price on the horse that ended up winning, thinking Friedman\'s horse would actually be 1-9, and I might get 10-1. I didn\'t bet him at 6-1.

The larger issue concerns giving out horses like that, because a) there\'s very little upside, and a lot of things can go wrong, making the margin for error very small, and b) as Richie Scwartz used to say, what do we know that the public doesn\'t? In fact, there were things the barn could know that we and the public might not, in this case, and they were all potentially bad-- as bearing out in the race shows, using one example.

I\'m out of here for the weekend, golf and Springsteen in Jersey.
Title: As I said........
Post by: diamond-joe on June 22, 2006, 06:29:38 PM
......I don\'t play horses of this price unless I can hook them up w/some serious value, which seems to be the approach Len also advised. I read Len\'s post, as well as going through a few of the previous week\'s ROTW\'s, and frankly, I don\'t see that you have much room to criticize, but I understand you have a competing product to sell. Looked to me like a fun stab Len took for Father\'s Day that looked like a walkover on Thorograph. After all, you can afford a few misses when you give out a $170(?) Preakness exacta. I hope nobody will lynch me when I pick my first loser. ;)
     Have fun at the golf course, and hope it isn\'t inappropriate to discuss a competing product on your board. Thanks again for posting the race.
Title: Re: unclaimed
Post by: fillway56 on June 22, 2006, 08:11:39 PM
IF U GOT THE WINNER PLUS 2\'ND & 3\'RD THAT\'LL WORK
Title: Re: As I said........
Post by: TGJB on June 23, 2006, 10:04:36 AM
On the contrary, there is a long tradition of Raggies coming here, and it always ends up the same.

Keep looking through those ROTW\'s. When you get one where we said a horse was an overlay at 1-9-- or even that a horse was the right play at odds-on-- let me know. We intentionally pick races where we are pointing out something DIFFERENT than the public sees-- you won\'t find one.

Len did not give out an exacta in the Preakness, or any other play, BEFORE the race. Or, to put it another way, he gave out LOTS of exactas, as he does every time he makes a list, checks it twice, and says more than half the field should be used in exotics. With each other? With just the horse listed on top? In tris? Supers? Hmmm...

His ANALYSIS of the Preakness was good, saying the winner didn\'t have that good a chance to repeat, but was a bet at 10-1 or more. Mine was to take a position against Barbaro, but I also made a small win bet on the winner at the ridiculous price, for the same reason. The problem for me was the third horse.
Title: Re: As I said........
Post by: TGJB on June 23, 2006, 11:55:26 AM
DJ-- By the way, I liked your \"fun stab\" comment. \"Overlay at 1-9\" means close to 100% to win-- that\'s a stab? And \"fun\", as in, they take play money at the windows at Monmouth?

As for looking like a walkover on TG, as I said before, a little more price and I was betting the winner, so no. But that\'s not even the point.

For the fourth time-- it\'s not just that the horse lost. It\'s that Len gave out, as a lock, a horse that every public handicapper and everybody with a DRF could have come up with, without sheets. And by saying it was a lock he encouraged everyone to empty out on it-- fun stab my $*#&.
Title: Dead Rail at Churchill on MAY 5TH
Post by: miff on June 23, 2006, 01:54:48 PM
The winner of the 4th at Belmont was coming off the X rail.Dutrow off good spacing, signature works, dead rail in last and 8-1.Sometimes slower fig runners have other big angles going in.


Mike
Title: Re: Dead Rail at Churchill on MAY 5TH
Post by: bellsbendboy on June 23, 2006, 04:50:27 PM
Hope you had him Mike.  The rail at Churchill, last Saturday, Stephen Foster day, was also dead. The track maintenance report for that day had the word \"conditioned\"; any idea what that means?  BBB
Title: Re: Dead Rail at Churchill on MAY 5TH
Post by: miff on June 23, 2006, 05:13:14 PM
Bell,

I had  a modest win bet, but lost him in the pick 3 and 6,no big result.As far as \"conditioned\", I can only imagine. It goes to my gripe about race track management not having a clue as to what followers of the game want to know.It\'s like pulling teeth to get certain info and you would think management would want to inform all players as much as possible.

Bell, I\'d pick up the phone and call Churchill(track super) to find out what it means.

Good Luck,
Mike
Title: Re: "........I was betting the winner......"
Post by: diamond-joe on June 23, 2006, 09:05:31 PM
  Jerry wrote,
 
Quote\"As for looking like a walkover on TG, as I said before, a little more price and I was betting the winner, so no. But that\'s not even the point.

For the fourth time-- it\'s not just that the horse lost. It\'s that Len gave out, as a lock, a horse that every public handicapper and everybody with a DRF could have come up with, without sheets.

Keep looking through those ROTW\'s. When you get one where we said a horse was an overlay at 1-9-- or even that a horse was the right play at odds-on-- let me know. We intentionally pick races where we are pointing out something DIFFERENT than the public sees-- you won\'t find one. \"

(Can I use HTML code here?)
test

   This is what it sounds like to me, based on this quote and your previous posts:    after the race, the winner was your pick out of the rest of the field, as far as finding a horse to beat the chalk, but you would have needed 10-1 to play this pick to beat that chalk. Have I understood you? Frankly, no offense, but you\'d have a little more credibility on all this if you had posted your criticism of the post and analysis of the race prior to it\'s running rather than jumping on after they hit the wire, especially if you claim it\'s not about the horse losing. Also, it doesn\'t sound like you gave that chalk much chance at being beat.

   Was that invitation to go over the ROTW\'s legit, or simply hyperbole, because as a guest here, I think this has already digressed a little too far into Rikki Lake territory, and maybe we should just end it here? In case it was an actual invite, I saw you remind someone here about your successes in the ROTW, and you mentioned the Arkansas Derby, so I\'ll start with that one:

Overview – Lawyer Ron (paid $3) is the most likely winner, but Steppenwolfer (3rd choice) is the value, and solid for the exotics. Exacta paid $13.80.

    Out of all the races that weekend, you chose this one. Not only is this exactly what you accuse Len of doing, giving out plays that every public handicapper has without Thorograph, but you even felt so good about the $13 exacta that you wanted to remind someone about it.

    However, in the Honeymoon ROTW at Hollywood, you delivered the promise which you made earlier by playing AGAINST the public. You played against the 2 favorites (who ran 1-2) and your most likely winner was up the track.


    Don\'t get me wrong on this, I\'m not trying to beat you up for a bunch of bad picks, or poor results, I just find it odd that someone with this kind of record would stick his neck out on a post lambasting someone else for not cashing a race. Hope you\'re enjoying The Boss, and maybe you can address some of this when you get back on Monday.
Title: Re: Stephen Foster ROTW
Post by: diamond-joe on June 23, 2006, 09:25:43 PM
QuoteLen did not give out an exacta in the Preakness, or any other play, BEFORE the race. Or, to put it another way, he gave out LOTS of exactas, as he does every time he makes a list, checks it twice, and says more than half the field should be used in exotics. With each other? With just the horse listed on top? In tris? Supers? Hmmm...



QuoteBuzzards Bay - ...he is a contender...

Seek Gold - Non-contender. (winner)

West Virginia is competitive.

there a lot of reasons to think Cosmonaut may run well. (ran last)

Wiggins - ... makes him a contender.

M B Sea - Non-contender.

Perfect Drift may get a minor piece of this

Brass Hat - Contender.

Love of Money - At the weights his top would make him competitive.




hmmmmmmmm...........

Title: Re: Colonial Turf Cup ROTW
Post by: diamond-joe on June 23, 2006, 09:34:29 PM
QuoteBottom Line—Stream Cat is vulnerable favorite. He concedes weight to several faster
horses and although he has a good pattern and could win, he an underlay and worth
taking a shot against. Second choice Go Between is solid but shows a tendency to run
wide and could do so again from the outside post. Third cho ice Kid Deville is fastest, has
speed, but enters off a big top and has distance questions. Fourth choice Showing Up is
somewhat of an unknown. Frankly we have no strong convictions as to a winner, but in
this situation, where the first four all exhibit some vulnerability we're inclined to hunt for
prices. Outperformance, Can't Beat It, Roman Dynasty satisfy this pursuit and I'm going
throw in Prime Diamond for a little piece because at times I'm irrational.


  = I have no opinion. Top 4 may or may not run, and I\'ll use 4 others.



hmmmmmmmmm........
Title: Re: Colonial Turf Cup ROTW
Post by: TGAB on June 23, 2006, 09:58:51 PM
Now that\'s me you\'re talking to. And I think it\'s pretty clear what I\'m doing.
Title: Re: Colonial Turf Cup ROTW
Post by: P-Dub on June 24, 2006, 12:42:24 AM
Go back to the other board and quit wasting our time.

What exactly are you trying to prove?? Is there a Rag party this weekend that you will be the life of?? Get a life dude.
Title: Re: Colonial Turf Cup ROTW
Post by: richiebee on June 24, 2006, 02:50:07 AM
TGAB and NCT correct to point out that Barclay Tagg (and to a lesser extent Vinnie Blengs) were top drawer shipping turf runners into NYRA tracks in the late 80s early 90s.

Quite a bit of rain here last night, but would expect that the Belmont feature will be run over a course on the firm side of good.

NCT-- Will you be walking the turf course at Colonial to give your TG pals an accurate account of course condition?

Note to Diamond Joe: I honestly do not think Len needs to be defended on this board; I would say that most posters here respect his handicapping skills. TGJB has to take his occasional shot because it\'s good \"bidness\" and above all else, TGJB is a \"bidnessman\". You seem too well spoken to fall in with the knuckle scraping Greek chorus which derives more joy from a ROTW analysis which tanks than from having a winner on their own.
Title: Re: Dead Rail at Churchill on MAY 5TH
Post by: Chuckles_the_Clown2 on June 24, 2006, 07:25:30 AM
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The winner of the 4th at Belmont was coming off
> the X rail.Dutrow off good spacing, signature
> works, dead rail in last and 8-1.Sometimes slower
> fig runners have other big angles going in.
>
>
> Mike

Did Tgraph subsequently assign an X rail?

I\'ve cashed four races now with X rail on May 5th as my hypothesis. Actually thats not true. My hypothesis is NOT X rail ...it is O wide.


Title: Re: Dead Rail at Churchill on MAY 5TH
Post by: miff on June 24, 2006, 07:44:01 AM
Chuck,

Dead rail on the 5th but not on the 6th.


Mike
Title: Nothing personal
Post by: diamond-joe on June 24, 2006, 08:20:23 AM
   The extensive analysis that you took the time to type up is really the only kind of analysis I\'m interested in. I don\'t look for someone else to tell me how to play races, just enjoy reading someone else\'s take on the various entries. But it\'s pretty clearly hypocritical to rip Len for doing the same thing he posts on his own site, regardless of who\'s doing the analysis. Of course, like Richie(?) said, I guess everything he posts is just his sales pitch. Which is too bad, really. I would think his product good enough to sell without the WWF routine, but maybe I\'m wrong.

   Good luck in the race, TGAB, and I hope you clean up.
Title: Re: Dead Rail at Churchill on MAY 5TH
Post by: Chuckles_the_Clown2 on June 24, 2006, 08:30:36 AM
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Chuck,
>
> Dead rail on the 5th but not on the 6th.
>
>
> Mike

my bad, i meant the 6th where outside was advantaged. The dead rail on the 5th was not even debateable.  Thought the race you were speaking of could be added to the list.




Title: Re: Colonial Turf Cup ROTW
Post by: marcus on June 24, 2006, 11:50:31 AM
so right p-dub , besides let len do his own talking . if dj is family or friends or in business with len - ok whatever , we all have are own stories to tell .  

but still , on TG the 1-9 shot\'s pattern was lousey none the less and the big question was IF the horse would be able to run the big number .
I still don\'t know who won , but i\'d guess it was the rail horse ...    
Title: Re: "What can Thoro-Graph sheets tell us about this race that perhaps......
Post by: diamond-joe on June 24, 2006, 04:11:40 PM
.... other handicapping tools can't?\"




 This is the kind of thing I\'m talking about.



Bottom Line—Stream Cat is vulnerable favorite. He concedes weight to several faster
horses and although he has a good pattern and could win, he is an underlay and worth
taking a shot against. Second choice Go Between is solid but shows a tendency to run
wide and could do so again from the outside post. Third choice Kid Deville is fastest, has
speed, but enters off a big top and has distance questions. Fourth choice Showing Up is
somewhat of an unknown. Frankly we have no strong convictions as to a winner, but in
this situation, where the first four all exhibit some vulnerability we're inclined to hunt for
prices. Outperformance, Can't Beat It, Roman Dynasty satisfy this pursuit and I'm going
throw in Prime Diamond for a little piece because at times I'm irrational.





  Not doing this to beat up on you, TGAB, just trying to decipher Jerry\'s comments about betting against the public. Frankly, you should post here more, and stick to this style of ROTW analysis. I think Jerry would be doing his business a favor by ceding most of the spokesperson duties to someone like yourself, but it\'s his business.

  On to the analysis of the analysis. Excluding your bomber hunch play who finished last, although, if he had run well we\'d be hearing about it forever, you gave favorable mention to 7 of 14 horses. This happened to coincide almost exactly with the half of the field that the public liked, in no particular order, and the public picking the winner. This was the Race Of The WEEK. The whole WEEK. 4 of the top 5 morning line choices ran 1-4, with the one anomaly being the unexpected ballooning up of the first Dutrow.

   Why are people supposed to buy Thorograph, again? To take big prices on 9/2 ml first Dutrow? If you\'re going to claim to produce a better product, and use it against the public, then you should step up to the plate, bet against the public, and do so successfully. I\'m pretty sure if your ROTW came up with a $170 exacta, rather than $13, it would be posted on the front page for eternity.

   Again, don\'t take this personally, TGAB. I think it was a pretty good analysis, and I hope you got the combos right on the huge first Dutrow value.
Title: Re: besides let len do his own talking
Post by: diamond-joe on June 24, 2006, 04:16:37 PM
  Last I remember, I was having a discussion with Jerry Brown. I don\'t know how you two busybodies got involved. Are you his agents, or something like that?

  I\'m pretty sure Jerry can address any posts I make on his own, especially since he invited me to go over those ROTWs. But don\'t worry too much, Jerry seemed to make some veiled threat about banning all previous Raggies that posted here, in the past, so I\'m sure I\'ll be gone soon, one way or the other, if not just from boredom, and you\'ll be safe here in your virtual basement from the harsh light of reality.
Title: I forgot about the bad pattern
Post by: diamond-joe on June 24, 2006, 04:18:13 PM
That part was funny.
Title: Re: "What can Thoro-Graph sheets tell us about this race that perhaps......
Post by: TGAB on June 24, 2006, 04:46:30 PM
We makes odds plays based on the morning line just like Friedman did with Bernardini and sometimes we lose and are just plain wrong but we don\'t gve out odds-on horses let alone ones that lose.

Jerry will be back on Monday and I\'m sure he\'ll respond.  
Title: Re: we don't gve out odds-on horses
Post by: diamond-joe on June 24, 2006, 04:56:21 PM
 What do you call the Arkansas Derby ROTW? Again, that was the Race Of The WEEK. Frankly, if that big chalk at Mth had such a bad pattern, Jerry wouldn\'t have needed 10-1 on his best play to beat it, and it would have made a great ROTW. Like I have been saying, it would seem to me that you\'d want to show some results on your own board before ripping your competitors (to be generous to you) for having the gall of having a bad result. How far back do I have to look in the ROTW archive to find a $170 exacta, or any result that\'s better than some DRF handicapper, for that matter? Jerry embarrasses himself with these ridiculous threads, and whether they say so or not, I\'m pretty sure nearly everyone here realizes it.
Title: Re: besides let len do his own talking
Post by: marcus on June 24, 2006, 05:39:56 PM
jerry allows many of us \"busy\" folks - and others like yourself dj ,  to post on the TG ask the experts page / forum , and subsequently on this thread which jerry himself started ... even on a dare , i wouldn\'t crash the rag board out of respect for everybody .
 
** finally , the one thing w/ the 1-9 shot , amoung others is , that it would have been imprudent ( unless a big price ) to use that horse given the \"pattern \" if one was looking at the race with TG #\'s , you can agree with that - right ?

Title: Re: Handicapping short prices
Post by: diamond-joe on June 24, 2006, 06:39:39 PM
marcus Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> jerry allows many of us \"busy\" folks - and others
> like yourself dj ,  to post on the TG ask the
> experts page / forum , and subsequently on this
> thread which jerry himself started ... even on a
> dare , i wouldn\'t crash the rag board out of
> respect for everybody .
>  
> ** finally , the one thing w/ the 1-9 shot ,
> amoung others is , that it would have been
> imprudent ( unless a big price ) to use that horse
> given the \"pattern \" if one was looking at the
> race with TG #\'s , you can agree with that - right
> ?
 

That would be the difference between us, I have no respect for Jerry Brown, and it\'s primarily due to threads like this one. That would also be the difference between you and Jerry, as he routinely used to crash the Ragozin board, advertising his product on their stage, until they were forced to go to a registration only board to block the spam. Considering the circumstances, I don\'t think I\'m putting him out by confining my comments to a single thread on his ROTW which he invited me to examine.


As for that big 2/5(?) chalk, even after the race has been run Jerry can\'t spin that one. He meekly waited until the race was over to venture a comment, and the horse looks like a 2/5 on his product, just like it must have looked like a 2/5 on DRF and probably Sheets. Even after the race was run, Jerry admits he would\'ve needed 10-1 on his next best pick to try and beat him. Going forward, I would encourage all you guys to beat the 2/5 horses before they run, as about 11/12 of that horse\'s last races would have won that one on Thorograph.

I think I already covered the approach I take on this kind of horse 2 or 3 times in this thread, so I\'d hate to waste more of your time. But, since you ask, I generally either play against very short ones, or try to value around them. Or pass, of course. Although, I don\'t have anyone asking me to find some kind of play on Father\'s Day.

A couple good examples that come immediately to mind would be a turf stake at CD last weekend, and the most recent Breeders Cup sprint. The CD race featured a big Biancone chalk who had one very fast race showing in this country and figured to be very tough to beat, but there was maybe some value underneath, particularly in a 20-1 Romans entry who looked pretty mediocre in the Form. He had very low Beyers, and had barely escaped the maiden ranks, so he had at least 2 strikes against him from the DRF handicapper\'s point of view, but looked good against the rest of the field on The Sheets, if a little slow vs the big chalk. He ended up a ridiculous 60-1, when he probably should have been 4 or 5-1, and ran third to that big chalk and an underlaid 2nd chalk Pletcher sporting an excellent pattern. It was a fairly pedestrian trifecta, and certainly not what I was shooting for, but I managed to squeeze a little out of the short horse who had the stick out fig(s).

The Breeders Cup sprint featured some very fast chalk who everyone told me was a lock. I think one of your regulars has some comment on him, maybe. On The Sheets, he was VERY fast, but had the unfortunate timing to run a big neg fig in his previous race, setting himself up for a reaction, and giving me some value if I picked the right ones to beat him. I didn\'t have much opinion on the exotics within the race, so I used 2 (or was it 3?) horses in this one to beat him in the middle leg of a pretty good pick 3, singling a big value Frankel in the first leg.

So, these are examples of how I try to dredge value from the gimmicks on the strong chalks, and try to find value betting aginst the weak chalks using The Sheets. You might note in this post that Len\'s getting lynched on, that he makes mention of trying to find similar value underneath, on what looked like a very strong chalk. I could also give you examples of races where I passed, or got beat, but those aren\'t as memorable to me.
Title: Re: Handicapping short prices
Post by: mandown on June 24, 2006, 07:02:32 PM
Dave/Soup/Diamond-Joe

If you\'re not one and the same then the Koreans are behind the curve in trying to clone humans. Anyone who thinks \'Hehehehehe\' or \'Hmmmmmm\' etc is a telling debating point obviusly lacks something in the grey matter department. Hard to beleive that there are two of you Raggies that are equally that mentally-challenged. On the other hand . . .

And while you\'re here can you run that quarter-point condition move stuff by us again? Len\'s figures are really that accurate are they? Plus or minus an eighth of a point? That\'s snake oil and anyone with half a brain would know it. Your view is?

I admire your loyalty but you\'re making a fool of yourself. That latest post on Handicapping short prices was absolute tosh.

Regards,

George



Title: Re: Handicapping short prices
Post by: spa on June 24, 2006, 07:13:07 PM
Joe, you miss the point. The ROTW is a race,once a week. Most are almost too tough to handicap! Since I\'ve used TG,my percentage of cashed tickets has gone up. I\'ve been betting for 50 years and there is no product to rival TG......
ps, we already have one clown in our family...........
Title: Re: ROTW
Post by: diamond-joe on June 24, 2006, 07:28:10 PM
spa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Joe, you miss the point. The ROTW is a race,once a
> week. Most are almost to tough to handicap! Since
> I\'ve used TG,my percentage of cashed tickets has
> gone up. I\'ve been betting for 50 years and there
> is no product to rival TG......



That\'s great for you, and I don\'t doubt it. I certainly realize that the ROTW is only one race, and like Len, we all have our share of races that don\'t pan out, but added up, the ROTW archive is littered with both poor results and plays that are no different from anything from the $5 DRF, and Jerry has his pick of any single stakes race on a given weekend, which he claims is his strongest category. I\'d expect SOMETHING to click for him above a $13 exacta, and if it doesn\'t, he would probably want to keep his mouth shut. But that\'s just one man\'s opinion. Maybe I was raised differently.

EDIT: I forgot the whole point of this reply. If you seriously think Jerry wouldn\'t want some great result from the ROTW that he could post on the site and talk about for years, you are really fooling yourself.
Title: Re: Handicapping short prices
Post by: diamond-joe on June 24, 2006, 07:34:17 PM
mandown Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Dave/Soup/Diamond-Joe
>
> If you\'re not one and the same then the Koreans
> are behind the curve in trying to clone humans.
> Anyone who thinks \'Hehehehehe\' or \'Hmmmmmm\' etc is
> a telling debating point obviusly lacks something
> in the grey matter department. Hard to beleive
> that there are two of you Raggies that are equally
> that mentally-challenged. On the other hand . . .
>
> And while you\'re here can you run that
> quarter-point condition move stuff by us again?
> Len\'s figures are really that accurate are they?
> Plus or minus an eighth of a point? That\'s snake
> oil and anyone with half a brain would know it.
> Your view is?
>
> I admire your loyalty but you\'re making a fool of
> yourself. That latest post on Handicapping short
> prices was absolute tosh.
>
> Regards,
>
> George
>  



I don\'t even know what half this post means, but as for the \"hmmmmm...\", I lifted it from the end of Jerry\'s post (the one I was replying to). Sorry if you missed that, and don\'t be so hard on the boss. It\'s not good politics. You seem to have some hostility issues. Maybe try turning that frown upside down.

Tosh,

Joe
Title: Re: ROTW
Post by: spa on June 24, 2006, 07:36:51 PM
Case in point, last week\'s ROTW was the feature. I bought the numbers for the last race. The TG numbers gave me (1) the winner (2) the exacta (3) the tri an (4) the super...........all pounded straight bets,that\'s why I use the TG. It\'s the money.
Title: Re: CD 6/17 race 11
Post by: diamond-joe on June 24, 2006, 07:55:09 PM
spa Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Case in point, last week\'s ROTW was the feature. I
> bought the numbers for the last race. The TG
> numbers gave me (1) the winner (2) the exacta (3)
> the tri an (4) the super...........all pounded
> straight bets,that\'s why I use the TG. It\'s the
> money.
>  


Congrats, that\'s great for you. Considering Jerry\'s ROTW results, I\'d advise him to make you his house handicapper. How did those horses look in the Form and how do you think they looked on The Sheets? I think I remember most of that, I used Mott\'s winner and Frankel\'s 4th in the multirace gimmicks, and since I don\'t play much chalk, made most of my plays around the value of the Frankel horse who was an overlaid (in my opinion) 7-1. Not too often I get 7-1 on Frankel, but I can find 5/2 on Mott anytime.

Here\'s the finish:
1st  - Mott as 5/2 favorite by 2
2nd - Proctor as 2nd choice at 3-1 by a neck
3rd - 5th Biancone, Frankel, and Asmussen, all at about 6-1
rest of the field all double digits

Congrats, Thorograph, on playing against the public, and giving spa a $6.80 winner, $24 exacta, $77 tri, and $195 super.
Honestly not trying to make a joke out of your good handicapping, spa, but surely you can see how anybody might have made a similar play out of the $5 Form?
Title: Re: Handicapping short prices
Post by: marcus on June 24, 2006, 10:34:06 PM
well i can\'t say with confidence as to what happened or what didn\'t happen - everybody has different takes and experiences , if culpability exsists - it\'s a shared entity by all parties involved .
 i understand what you are saying about the handicapping approach and wagering strategies , take whats there and do the best you can with the card or the day to get value ( and make money ) .
Title: Re: Stephen Foster ROTW
Post by: NoCarolinaTony on June 25, 2006, 12:31:22 PM
Diamond Joe .....red boarding can be very un becomming.

NC Tony