Shouldn\'t there be a rule that restricts Trainers and or Owners discussing race tactics with \"adversaries\" pre race? Does that stick in anyone else\'s craw that trainers get to deciding among themselves how the race will unfold? Its one thing to comment before the press, \"I\'m sending my horse\". Its an entirely different matter to discuss a race privately with another trainer.
With that broached, its clear there will be those that will stake out a contrary position, maybe even just to be contrary, but according to the report below, Bobby \"Race Fixer\" Frankel was up to his old tricks again discussing the race with Dutrow pre running.
Theres no stake in this matter with a pass on the race, but a guy like Silver Charm should be pretty miffed. The pace, though solid, was once again negotiated by one of horse racing\'s master cheaters.
Congrats to the cashers, but Mr. Frankel needs to go to jail:
\"Dutrow said Bobby Frankel, the trainer of Mass Media, told him Mass Media would be sent to the front from the rail.\"
http://www.drf.com/news/article/75017.html
Where are the Stewards? Where is the N.Y. Attorney General?
There\'s lots of this nonsense in all sports that goes on and there\'s very little anyone can do about it.
If you bet 500 on an NFL game and one of the players on the other team gets tackled and one of YOUR guys helps him up, the reaction is, \"dont help him up, i got 500 on this game\"
These guys view this from THEIR perspective. All people who are in the same business act like they are NOT on different teams.
You\'ll always see pro athletes socializing with each other. I agree, its bad for the bettor to have to see it.
How do Yanks and Red Sox fans feel when Jason Veritek gets to first base and Jason Giambi is laughing and talking to him in a friendly manner? Both groups of fans are screaming \"dont talk with that scumbag\"
Same thing in racing. We are all in this for ourselves. All we care about (and rightly so) is if WE cash our next bet. We want to think that all these people hate each other because its just another thing we DONT have to factor into our handicapping.
How about California just passed a new rule that same owners can race uncoupled. There are no more entries in California. Take a look at the Northern California entries and you\'ll see that Jerry Hollendorfer owns basically every horse he runs now. I guess the racing board isn\'t paying attention to the \'ownership changes\' from beard owners to Hollendorfer. I\'d love to see the list of horses who remained in the same stable in Calif yet just got recent ownership changes on paper.
I guess the bottom line is that no one cares. This stuff is part of handicapping. You have to factor in that there is collusion going on in certain situations and you just have to make the best of it.
Next time that Frankel and Dutrow are in the same race, you have to factor this stuff into your analysis. Its just part of handicapping, as unethical as it may be.
When the tackler helps the ballcarrier to his feet, he doesn\'t tell him to expect a blitz on the next play. When Veritek talks to Giambi between pitches, he doesn\'t tell him the hit and run is coming. The issue here isn\'t socializing between competitors, it\'s divulging strategy before it happens.
The fact that Dutrow would brag about this to a reporter just proves these guys think they are above the rules, whether regulatory or ethical.
Thats Rickey, not the brightest light for the game. Who\'s \"sending\" is not the most guarded secret at the racetrack. Some trainers \"advertise\" sending to influence others to take back.You can hear it every day at any track.Rickey and Frankel have been kinda chummy for some time, same vet, similar training MO.
In the Derby and Preakness no less than 5 trainers announced that their horse was being sent, so what?
Mike
\"Sending off the fence in a Grade 1 one turn race is not much of a story! BBB
You\'re right, they don\'t tell each other strategy. But, it looks bad. If i bet on the Giants, i don\'t want Tiki Barber helping a player off the ground from the other team. Let that opposing player use up more energy getting up by himself than YOU spending your energy lifting him up.
If it goes on, fine. I just don\'t want to hear about it or see it. If Dutrow is going to discuss strategy with Bobby before the race, thats his business, not ours...i don\'t think the fans should have to know about this stuff...just like a Yankee or Red Sox hater doesn\'t want to see a player from his team talking to the enemy.
If Giambi wants to go to Veritek\'s house after the game for dinner, thats fine..as long as i don\'t hear about or see it. Same with racetrack collusion. Keep it to yourself, no reason to air it to DRF.
doesnt matter, you mean to tell me ypu think these idiots arent cheating? pssst- hint hint, more cheating here than any other sport, other than jai-alai.
I think these analogies aren\'t even in the same \"ballpark\".
Talking on 1st base, helping someone up, going to dinner etc.......cmon. You guys can do better than this. These examples in no way affect the outcome of an event. Grasping at straws.
As Miff stated, many trainers discuss strategy before a race. The problem is when trainers of horses with similar styles, i.e. front runners, alter their natural running styles. Something like what Frankel and Romans did a few years ago. Now that is \"unethical\".
But to talk about how your horse will run a race, don\'t see the problem there.
Without getting involved in this-- or even accepting the idea that the running styles could affect the outcome:
The difference between two competitors fraternizing in team sports and this is that there are OTHER teams playing in racing that can be affected.
The difference between announcing what you are going to do publicly and this is that this way the ONLY people who know are the ones in the conversation.
Insider trading?
Insider Trading indeed.
I am actually not a Frankel basher but his name keeps popping up in these kinds of spots a little too often lately.
The Ghostzapper/Roses in May \"I go to the lead you lay second\" paddock handshake agreement in the Breeders Cup Classic.
The Wild Desert fiasco in Canada last year where listed Trainer Frankel said it wasn\'t his horse, had no published works for months, and the owner boasted he won over $100,000 in bets, not purse money in bets. Oh by the way Dutrow now trains previously mentioned horse.
An now Mass Media sets a tracking pace with chalk rival calmly ridden by his side.
More than just the obvious ethical problems, is these events are not occuring at Penn National, but in the Breeders Cup Classic, the Queens Plate, and now the Met Mile.
The last time I checked this isn\'t NASCAR where Teams broker deals with each other. If it is then count on me to be checking out.
SOON.........
Firstly it was pretty clear the best horse won the Vet Mile, but who can say another tick faster or so on the initial fractions would not have gotten Sun King up? Obviously Frankel told Dutrow he was going for a reason. It wasn\'t to discuss the wine they had with their chicken during their strategy dinner.
As far as front intentions from the One Hole, that clearly wasn\'t overly apparent to Dutrow, who stated Silver Train might take the lead. It was only after Dutrow\'s public statement that Frankel came to him and said, \"Dick, its gonna be like this and you\'re gonna like it.\" For those that lost on the Vet Mile, heres the past performances of Mass Media. Where in those records do you see evidence of a front end horse? Take note of his previous starts from the One Hole:
http://www.drf.com/row/pps/06metmile.pdf
Bottom line is this, If the pace of the event was not at least minimally significant, at least as perceived by the Trainers, there would be no reason for Frankel to tip his hand to Dutrow. Just go ears pinned back and screaming, bust your move. Otherwise, if you do think pace is relevant don\'t negotiate it in a clandestine meeting. Make public proclamations regarding your intentions. In other words Just do It, or Announce it Publically.
Prior to the event, I thought Silver Train would be on the lead recognizing there were some quick horses in there. Thats not how it was run though was it?
The best horse won, but that doesnt mean he couldn\'t have been beaten Monday.
. imallin Wrote:
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> You\'re right, they don\'t tell each other strategy.
> But, it looks bad. If i bet on the Giants, i don\'t
> want Tiki Barber helping a player off the ground
> from the other team. Let that opposing player use
> up more energy getting up by himself than YOU
> spending your energy lifting him up.
>
> If it goes on, fine. I just don\'t want to hear
> about it or see it. If Dutrow is going to discuss
> strategy with Bobby before the race, thats his
> business, not ours...i don\'t think the fans should
> have to know about this stuff...just like a Yankee
> or Red Sox hater doesn\'t want to see a player from
> his team talking to the enemy.
>
> If Giambi wants to go to Veritek\'s house after the
> game for dinner, thats fine..as long as i don\'t
> hear about or see it. Same with racetrack
> collusion. Keep it to yourself, no reason to air
> it to DRF.
ST and MM went at it 44.4 and 1.08.4.That was supposed to \"help\" Silver Train?
miff Wrote:
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> ST and MM went at it 44.4 and 1.08.4.That was
> supposed to \"help\" Silver Train?
As opposed to two horses head and head running the half in 44.1 or 44.2 and the six in 1.08.3? Not sure its necessary to elaborate, but Mass Media was allowed to lead tracked closely by Silver Train. What if the two had both assumed the lead was theirs for the taking? Put still another way, if they both went head to head for awhile, how much more pace was necessary to allow Sun King to make up the difference? Clearly not much.
The Vet fractions look very solid, but it may be the track was speeding up during the day. Hard to tell with all the damnable turf racing going on. The first 3 finishers ran very well. The perfecta horses were very close.
jbelfior wrote:
CTC---
\"He\'ll be back sooner than Barbaro.\".......Man, that\'s cold.
Here\'s a prediction: From here on in, BROTHER DEREK wins as many more races as BARBARO.
Some of us bet Barbaro to have issues. Maybe it is cold but predicting a horse to go off is almost like hitting the pick six. Not quite as lucrative, but in all candor Barbaro beat some bettors in his prior two races so getting even with him was very sweet even in the circumstances. Certainly if you bet upon him it was extremely unfortunate. Kinda like Smarty getting beat in the Belmont.
Your prediction about Bro Derek could come true. Then again he may have been compromised by post and trip in the Derby and been over the top for the Preakness. Guessing he turns the tables real soon upon returning to the races. Perhaps in the Swaps. Liked that horse for some time, but conditions did not favor him on Derby Day.