Gary Stevens comments about Barbaro acting up in the post parade. Edgar Prado IMMEDIATELY looks to the horses left rear leg and then within seconds looks twice to the horses right rear leg.Both Donna Barton and Gary both noted that Barbaro was warming up more than any horse and more than usual. They speculated that the horse/trainer/jockey may be warming up more in an effort to stay closer to the pace. If you have the NBC telecast on tape, take a look and tell me what you think.
I\'ve watched it over and over ... I think the horse was simply fit and tight and ready to shatter the field, with Prado simply trying to get him on the \"listening\" wavelength. I don\'t know if his warmup was too overly \"long\", as much as the others were short and/or conservative.
Even knowing the disaster about to unfold, and with which leg, I can\'t see anything amiss (including the little bit available after the false break) - not a short stride, no favoring, no weight shifts, nothing at all subtle that I could see ...
I seen it also. My dad and I was talking about how bad he was acting up during warming up and glad we didn\'t have him on our bets (even though our horse ran like shi*t anyways). This horse always looked good with his neck arched and full of his self, not on sat. though.
Barbaro, being the Derby winner, was naturally going to be the focus of attention in the Preakness and therefore more scrutiny. Had he been the clear cut favorite in the Derby perhaps more camera time would have been devoted to him at that time as well, and some of this quirkyness, for lack of a better word, would have been exposed.
Do we have the warm-up tapes on him prior to the Holy Bull, Florida Derby or even the KY Derby? He\'s a horse who had an unusual running action, maybe he always required additional warm-up because of that.
I was a simulcast site Saturday so I wasn\'t privy to Stevens or Baileys comments, the one shot I did see he had his next bowed and looked like he was sitting on another big race. My buddy, who was at the Derby, even commented that he looked the same in the Preakness post parade as he did in the Derby.
jmetro Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Barbaro, being the Derby winner, was naturally
> going to be the focus of attention in the
> Preakness and therefore more scrutiny. Had he
> been the clear cut favorite in the Derby perhaps
> more camera time would have been devoted to him at
> that time as well, and some of this quirkyness,
> for lack of a better word, would have been
> exposed.
>
> Do we have the warm-up tapes on him prior to the
> Holy Bull, Florida Derby or even the KY Derby?
> He\'s a horse who had an unusual running action,
> maybe he always required additional warm-up
> because of that.
>
> I was a simulcast site Saturday so I wasn\'t privy
> to Stevens or Baileys comments, the one shot I did
> see he had his next bowed and looked like he was
> sitting on another big race. My buddy, who was at
> the Derby, even commented that he looked the same
> in the Preakness post parade as he did in the
> Derby.
>
>
On figure pattern analysis, he was sitting upon a regression.
There were no real workouts between the Derby and the Preakness. No opportunity for him to demonstrate that he came out of the Derby 100%.
Both Gary Stevens and Jerry Bailey thought his demeanor/warm up routine were quite different from the Derby.
Good race observers thought he was agitated.
In that regard, he busted the Gate. He hadn\'t done that before. When he popped that gate, all doubt was removed. Was doubt removed because it was the last straw in a chain of considerations? Or was doubt removed because that gate rush injured him?
And then it suddenly ended after a relatively small number of Straightaway jumps.
Suppose it doesn\'t really matter. There won\'t be any more bets for or against Barbaro.
From www.newyorktimes.com:
In the operating room, Dr. Richardson worked with a team of eight: two residents, an intern, two anesthesiologists and three nurses.
\"I could see no evidence of pre-existing injury,\" Dr. Richardson said. \"It was just a bad step.\"
Just a bad step?
What\'s the odds of that?
Large.
I\'m no vet.............but with that many shattered bones how in the world can you tell?? Just curious, would be interested to hear him say why he feels that way.
Query, if Barbaro survives and goes on to be a stallion, will his progeny be genetically inclined to be fragile and more prone than the average thoroughbred to the same sort of accident that befell their daddy? If yes, is there irony in the fact that they are saving him for the purposes of breeding, yet that breeding should cause more of the same accidents requiring saving? Where does it lead in the end? I am not saying they should not try to save a life; I am merely wondering where this leads. Maybe in the TGI we need to add a new element -- an ouchy factor reflecting how ouchy a stallion\'s progeny sheets look.
I\'ve watched horses my entire life and noted it myself in his post parade. That DID NOT look like a horse that was ready to go. He looked VERY uptight and uncomfortable. Busting through the gate comfirmed it.
\"Bad Step\" my ass. I personally suspect that Prado suspected something wrong with the horse. He REPEATEDLY was looking at his right hind throughout the post parade. He looked at it again when he was being returned to the gate after the breakthrough. There\'s almost no doubt in my mind that Prado knew something wasn\'t kosher but didn\'t have the stones to say something and set off pandemonium of outrage with the connections, spectators at Pimlico, and NBC.
Any other horse on any other day, Prado would of spoken up and the horse would of been scratched. I truly believe that.
The doctor is not correct, horses don\'t go from perfectly healthy to broken down in one stride. I\'ve watched more videotape and seen more live race gallopouts and i can\'t tell you how many times i\'ve caught a horse \'broken down\' on the gallop out or did something really \'funny\' in the race and then they go out next time and beat my money only to break down eventually in the following race. (or the race after in some cases)
Its highly unlikely he was perfect going into the race.
Does anyone have anything to say about the fact that Barbaro had a published 2 furlong workout before the Preakness? To me it suggests that he was being kept on edge, possibly for being sent, which might help explain the prestart breakout.
The 2 furlong work was a mystery. TVG should have had a camera there, following this horse\'s every move. After all, when you are ballyhooed to be the next triple crown winner, everything you do should be documented.
I guess they were too busy filming closeups of Todd Schrupp eating burritos to send a camera crew to Fair hill.
I am not a Vet nor am I a trainer, but I have been a horse owner for many years. Barbaro\'s injury is most likely not a \"genetic\" issue and if he survives he would probably have great genes for future race horses. HOWEVER, if he does survive, I would be concerned about his ability to mount mares with a bad right rear leg. In Thoroughbred racing, artificial insem is prohibited.
I think Nureyev smashed a hind leg and was still able to serve after he recovered but was confined to his barn and never let out again.
Maybe TVG can do some investigative work on what may have led to Barbaro\'s career ending injury. Gary Stevens is on the payroll, was at Pimlico Saturday, and should be able to expound on what Prado was doing. Maybe he can explain why the assistant starter was unable to prevent \"Barbaro at the Gate\". Let the talking heads at TVG get complete tapes from Gulfstream Park and Churchill Downs and examine Barbaro\'s pre-race warm ups for his previous three races, and see if his pre-race Preakness was the norm, or tell tale signs of a horse not reading to run.
I would imagine Matz, Prado, et.al, will be making statements sometime this week in regards to the whole matter. I\'ll hold judgement until then.
I\'m amoung the few and fotunate for having my last rites given to me 3 different times after getting run over by a truck just before 17 yo and while things have turned out ok - The Doctors were wrong about alot and in disagreement ( and still are some 30+ yrs later ) about even more .
I had to make decisions based on all of what I was hearing and common sense . Not to long afterward I went to see a real sioux uipi man - a medicine man and we focused on some things which were out of bounds for conventional \"white medicine \" .
My view on Barbaro\'s Vet saying that no pre exsisting conditions were evident from his expert observations are acceptable - however it is still entierly possible that something was there which the tests and medical technology aren\'t picking up on ...
Based on my personal experience and just to cover all the base\'s and close the deal , The added value of getting a \" good \"medicine man \" to see and talk to the horse might prove imeasurable - though I doubt it would be covered by insurence .
Dr. Richardson and entire mecical team involved w/ Barbaro are owed a huge debt beyond monetary terms for all their skills and expetise and , heroism - they\'ve worked a kind of miracle irregardless of what the future might hold for the horse now ...
Based on the post - op pitures and footage ( of the injury leg ) that I\'ve seen on TV and on the internet , the horse Looks in excellent spirit .
It is not the job of TVG to investigate. Their sole purpose is to sweep things under the rug as not to hurt the industry, and to hide racing\'s dirty little secret: about how steroids are destroying the breed and causing changes in race horses\' skeletal structure, and weakening them to the point where a breakdown is inevitable. If something isn\'t done to get rid of steroids and other drugs in racing then this will no doubt happen again, and there will be much wailing and gnashing of teeth about \"damage to the sport\", and the cheaters will keep on killing horses for a short-term gain. Have the dopers taken such control over the sport that we can make a million and one excuses and theories as to why this happened but ignore the most obvious reason???
I posted a few messages about this subject, so this is a repeat.
Those of you who assume something was wrong with this horse before the race are quite correct. A condylar fracture, which was the cause of the bad step and the subsequent fractures to Barbaro\'s sesamoid and pastern, occurs from preexisting conditions.
It has to do with immature or soft bones and the reformation or flattening of the condylar in the ankle or pastern socket, due to the pounding of training and racing. Tale of the Cat is the poster boy of what happens if you stop on a promising juvenile and allow his bones time to harden with age. He came back super and achieved a good career.
Nobody connected with Barbaro will want to admit they knew about his problem, but almost all of us would have done the same thing they did. This was a very fast horse capable of winning at the highest level and the Triple Crown only comes once in a horse\'s life.
He was medicated to avoid the pain and showed no gimpiness in his stride as a result. He was raced lightly to keep the damage to a minimum, but it was getting worse all the time and I suppose it eventually got so bad that Prado could feel it in the warmup.
Basically this involves damage to the soft tissue below the condylar, which is invisible to ordinary xrays. Fractures occur when the tissue is worn completely through and bone hits bone.
I lost a horse in a race this way and learned what I am writing about through research. You could look it up.
Those of you naive enough to think these vets know everything and are always honest should just keep in mind what some vets bring to this business. It\'s not their job to protect the breed, but rather to protect their client\'s investments...and occasionally more.
exactly right , and i doubt whether the same test(s) or method of examination were used to make a determination on Barbaro that were used in the studys which sightsound refers to ( in the rear breakdown link ) that seem to make a good case for pre-ex cond ...
alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Nobody connected with Barbaro will want to admit
> they knew about his problem, but almost all of us
> would have done the same thing they did. This was
> a very fast horse capable of winning at the
> highest level and the Triple Crown only comes once
> in a horse\'s life.
>
> He was medicated to avoid the pain and showed no
> gimpiness in his stride as a result. He was raced
> lightly to keep the damage to a minimum, but it
> was getting worse all the time and I suppose it
> eventually got so bad that Prado could feel it in
> the warmup.
alm,
you are stating as fact that:
1) the connections of barbaro knew about an existing injury to the leg
2) barbaro had been treated for the injury with medication
3) the injury had been getting worse and worse
where did you get this info?
We have known for decades what happens to these animals when speed and precocious breeding engulf 2 /3 yr. olds.
The carrot is hung for all to grab.
HOW CAN YOU LAY BLAME ON ANYONE,IN ANY PART OF THIS INDUSTRY,WHEN THE RESIDUE TO FAST HORSES IS DEAD ANIMALS FROM BEGINNING TO END.
They die breeding,giving birth, in the field, breaking, training,drugs(licit and illicit).
CTMC would probly say(and I concur),there is no level playing field,and suspecting chicanery is involved with any outcome is to be pre-disposed. Either figure it in your fixed expenses or move on...but please stop w/the conspiracy theories...ITS BROKE AND YOU CAN\'T FIX IT!!!
ALM,
I\'m one of the naive ones that believes Dr.Dean Richardson,
Chief of Surgery at the George Widner Hospital for large animals at the World Class New Bolton Equine Center.Why would he lie, as you suggest?
He emphatically said he could see no damage of any preexisting injury which is often the case,but not here.
Mike
ALM,
You stated after the Derby that Barbaro was \"getting better\" and that Matz was \"to be congratulated for saving something for the next two races\". You made no mention of an impending breakdown and even stated the other Derby runnres had been overworked to the point of stress. Now you act as if you knew Barbaro\'s injury was there all along. Which is it?
Miff-- you are making 2 basic assumptions:
1-- that if there was a pre-existing injury to that leg he would be able to see it. One of the posts mentioned microfractures-- he presumably wouldn\'t be able to see those without a microscope.
2-- That the pre-existing injury was to the same spot.
My belief for a long time has been that what happens is similar to when a pitcher gets an injury, and compensates by changing his delivery-- that much power and torque used wrong can destroy an arm. When horses get something that causes them to be knocked out, uncomfortable, sore, or anything up to and including an actual injury, they can\'t tell you about it. But they can try to get off it-- and stress or break something else in so doing. A thousand pounds moving fast and coming down on something 3 inches wide creates tremendous pressure, and the slightest deviation of mechanics can be devastating.
Many excellent posts the last couple of days, very high level. The study showing the dramatic increase in chance of injury by increased racing and works was great, as was the one that mentioned the \"nuclear scan\" (don\'t remember the technical name of the device). That thing is a godsend-- if you suspect a horse has a problem (in my case by looking at the sheet) but can\'t find it, you have him scanned, and \"hot spots\" light up. We recently did it with Santana Strings, and his whole back lit up-- he had been running with a pulled back muscle, which wouldn\'t show up on any x-ray. You keep running a horse with a problem like that, who knows what happens.
JB,
My basic assumption is that the highest level of expertise possible, Dr.Richardson says one thing and all others, amateurs, say another. Pick one.
Mike
Miff-- a lot of serious experts were involved in those vet studies that were posted here. And the doc was doing a purely visual inspection, of only one area. And as I said, without a scan you can\'t tell about certain things, no matter who looks-- trust me on that one, I\'ve been through it dozens of times. By the time something shows, even to a vet, it\'s too late.
If Dr Richardson says there WAS damage, than an incredible amount of scrutiny comes on Michael Matz. Why would the Dr want to throw Matz under the bus? After all, whether there was damage or not, doesn\'t really matter at this point. Also, for insurance purposes, if he says there was damage, there could be some kind of situation with the insurance company should barbaro be put down.
i cant imagine the insurance company will want to pay off if matz and company ran a lame horse.
Jerry,
I agree and was not at all referring to the studies done by the vet experts regarding breakdowns.I was referring specifically to Barbaro and those talking conspiracy with NO first hand knowledge.
Very intersting is the shoe thing.As you know a majority of the NY based trainers use bends, caulks or both.One Hall of Famer(Jerkens) uses them exclusively while another, Shug, said that he felt caulks enhance a horses chances of\"jamming up\" and rarely(if ever) uses them.
Re shoes, last year at Saratoga,that guy alledgedly took down $100k in one week betting on \"shoes\" exclusively.There was someone nearly on the ground looking, as you said.
Since you have the data, can George check winners, by category, with bends, caulks, and without as a percentage over a reasonable period, wet tracks separate.
Mike
\"i cant imagine the insurance company will want to pay off if matz and company ran a lame horse.\"
Imallin,
I do not recall anyone remotely suggesting he looked lame.You thought so?Regarding insurance, the company does their own evaluation and they issued a policy, assuming there is one.The conspiracy theory would have great credence if this horse \"failed\" insurance evaluation and is not insured.
Mike
I\'m not saying he looked lame. But, if the doctor says there was a pre-existing injury, i can\'t imagine the insurance company would say,\"ok here\'s your money\" without further investigation.
no insurance company is going to insure something for 25 or 50 million without having a million rules and regulations in place. They would look for ANY angle to not have to pay.
Miff-- I would love to do footware studies. Problem is, though we\'ve asked for them many times, Equibase can\'t give us complete data BECAUSE THE #&%$ TRACKS WON\"T GIVE IT TO THEM. We print it when we get it (NYRA and a few others-- and Ernie said some years what NYRA prints is not accurate, hence the guy doing the indian tracker immitation). But it would be wrong to assume the absence of fc in our data means the horse didn\'t have them. We don\'t know.
The fellows who are throwing around their respect for the vet and their disdain for us amateurs are the amateurs here.
Go on line and google condylar fractures in racehorses. You may learn something.
Jerry Brown is right on in his assessment. There is a chance there was NO evidence left of the pre-existing tissue or bone damage in this horse\'s ankle once most of the bones and tissue down there were crushed in the breakdown.
Let me repeat: a condylar fracture occurs AFTER considerable tissue damage has already occured. Barbaro was not likely to have suffered a condylar fracture during the race had he not had such damage beforehand.
The ONLY way to spot a condylar issue in advance is through a procedure called nuclear scintigriphy...a very expensive procedure that may or may not have been used on Barbaro. This is probably the procedure Jerry is referring to with his own horse, in which its back \'lit up\' during the exam.
I am not guessing about this. I have bred and raced horses for 25 years and have been through my share of EVERY problem, especially this one. I have known more vets who were willing to medicate the pain than were willing to recommend spending thousands of dollars to pinpoint the problem.
To repeat: the fracture in Barbaro\'s condylar happened first. It was the loud noise Prado said he heard. Instantly the horse took a bad step on his next stride, feeling the pain, and came down crooked on his sesamoid and pastern. In the next several strides the pastern was nearly crushed.
This chain of events most likely did not start with a bad step. It started with a pre-existing condylar problem.
Sorry to disillusion anyone, but this is going on in horseracing EVERY day.
Some tracks like Bay Meadows actually have shoe info. Who knows if thats correct or not.
I remember seeing one time at santa anita on a sloppy track, they announced all runners are wearing \'stickers\' except one. You guessed it, the \'plain shod\' horse ran off.
I know this is off subject a bit, but at some point i\'d love to see thoroughbreds weighed on their way to the paddock by a scale. Just a 2 second \'stop\' on a freight scale thats located near the paddock, weigh the horse, announce the weights and eventually have the horseweight in the pgm.
They weigh dogs, why not horses?
Thats another piece of info that the public isn\'t privy to.
Great post alm right on the money, couldn\'t agree more.
Boys and girls:
I\'ve been in the horse ownership business for awhile and I\'ve lost a few that had the same, if not as severe, fractures. I\'m also in the medical field that treats athletes on a full time basis. Part of my job is to watch my injured college and professional athletes warm up prior to game time to make sure everything is a go before I give the decision to the coach that everything is OK.
Well guys...Saturday was not a go for Barbaro IMO. I did indeed watch him warmup closely and watched Prado\'s reactions to the many indications the horse was showing.
Go back and watch CLOSELY if you can the NBC tape of Barbaro/Prado walking with the pony horse prior to him being loaded. They cut to a commercial right AFTER the incident I\'ll describe.
He was walking right to left along the fence on the TV screen, where the pony rider makes a sharp left hand semi-circle turn to head back to the gate. As soon as Barbaro was almost to the 180 degree he shifts his weight to the right and Prado suddenly looks down to the right, then to the left, and then to the right again, obviously looking for something. He then sits upright and then 3 steps more Barbaro takes a short hop and stagger steps. Now Prado looks down again to check-right-left-and right again. See\'s and feels nothing and continues and then NBC cuts away.
I firmly believe that Brabaro caught an ankle or hit a small hole, spraining the ankle joint. Then when he busted the gate, he stretched the ligament more, and then 100 yards into the race, the ankle became unstable and dislocated 1st then fractured. This is the usual pattern of injuries. You need the ligament/tendon component to be intact to prevent dislocations.
I believe Barbaro did give subtle clues that he was amiss, but being taped front and rear, it gave him enough support to walk to the gate. If he did this PRIOR to the warmup jog, Prado would have known something was wrong. But, unfortunately, the sequence was reversed, he sprained AFTER the jog I believe. Imagine driving down the road at say 30-40 mph. Nice and smooth. All of a sudden you feel something under the car, and you suddenly look out your left mirror, rear mirror and right to see what you might have run over. Seeing nothing you continue to drive. But 15 seconds later you feel the same bump...you now for sure check all the mirrors and maybe pull over! Thats the reaction Prado gave while he checked, not once, but twice after Barbaro make those quirky moves 10-15 seconds apart.
Now, this is not only my feeling, but other owners who called in to the Capital OTB show Sunday morning. The technical crew did indeed get the NBC tape on the air this exact time as I discussed and they replayed it 3-4 times on air. The commentaors watched it intently and they agreed that something might have occured then.
We\'ll never know for sure...but I would not blame Prado. If you are baseball fans...go back 2 weeks ago with that Zambarano on the mound. He came into the game with a sore elbow (partial tear) that he only told Pedro Martinez about. He then continued to throw...felt a strain, told the trainer and manager he was OK...and threw ONE more pitch where he completely tore the ligament/tendon complex right off the bone and fragmented a small bony chip in the elbow.
And with all those small fractures and the dislocation ligament tear of the ligament/tendon complex...there\'s no way any MD/DVM can say for sure what came first, the sprain/dislocation or fracture to Barbaro.
Best piece of information I\'ve read on a topic of this nature.
ALM,your my new hero...really
Jerry,
Thanks anyway and I\'m sure you agree that a shoe study could help us.Personally, I kinda know which trainers use them all the time but I have no confirmation except for your symbols.
Re NY Tracks only, they always post it on the equipment board and do a crawl for the inhouse tv feed but I guess it would be cumbersome for your trackman to have to copy it all down.
Mike
Miff-- we get what\'s posted at NYRA. But as I understand it, the stickers can be anything from new and sharp to worn down and virtually flat-- that\'s what Ernie\'s guy is looking for. And they\'re listed the same.
Now SJU5 comes out with a terrific view...really
Combine the reality of current procedures with the possibility of a triple crown(immortality)... now you have a situation that played out well within the ability to foresee a break down.
Ron,
Would you conclude that this was the result of a preexisting condition, something that the connections of Barbaro must have known about?
From DRF,
On Monday,Prado said,
\"If I felt something was wrong I would have been the first person to scratch the horse.There was no indication at all that there was anything different from the Derby. I still can\'t believe it\"
In another segement when questioned about looking down he said something to the effect that he was checking to see if Barbaro pulled or twisted a shoe.
I wonder if Prado would possibly risk his own life riding a horse he felt was unsound or maybe he could not feel the unsoundness.People here are claiming to have seen all these signs yet a guy who rode thousands of races didn\'t.
Mike
Your description of what happened pre-race might explain what you think happened during the race or it might explain what I think could have happened in terms of a condylar issue.
I don\'t think you crack the condylar from a misstep as opposed to the condylar fracturing first, causing a misstep. Watching the rerun reminded me of a horse of mine who fractured the condylar at the head of the lane. She pitched ever so slightly to the side it broke on, then continued to run in a straight line.
She didn\'t break anything else as a result.
Regardless, there is little doubt in my mind, as a breeder-owner, that this horse was in trouble before the race.
>> as was the one that mentioned the \"nuclear scan\" (don\'t remember the >>technical name of the device). That thing is a godsend-- if you suspect a horse has a problem (in my case by looking at the sheet) but can\'t find it, you have him scanned, and \"hot spots\" light up.
Nuclear scintigraphy. Extremely valuable for finding \"potential problems\" in horses in work, it does indeed \"light up\" hotspots - before they show any sign of lameness. This goes to the microfractures that normally occur with bone remodeling during training, and the condylar fractures discussed. You need bone remodeling - that\'s what builds stronger bone.
In Barbaro you have a horse that was bred and trained \"the right way\" for the classics - he didn\'t do 10 and 3 at 18 months in a training sale (I wish the 2-year-olds in training sales would go away). He had tons of long, slow distance gallops to build endurance and strong bone (longer than most, look at his training regimine), appropriate speed work (speed kills), was raced early on turf (more forgiving than dirt), plenty of turnout time and grass gallops at Fair Hill, raised naturally in a field by his breeders for longer than most running with other young colts (builds strong bone and agility, athletic ability), didn\'t get pumped up with Winstrol to be muscled up for a successful sale as a yearling, was bred for distance and endurance....
A horse takes one bad, uneven step - theres a little fracture through a sesamoid, or through the edge of the condyle. Now the suspensory ligament is compromised (with the sesamoid), or the supporting structure of the leg isn\'t 100% (with the condyle) Horse doesn\'t feel it. Next two strides blows the fracture away from the bone. Now the leg can\'t bear weight normally at all - but the horse is still at 40mph. Next three strides tears the ligaments, shatters the pastern ...
I have no problem at all thinking \"one bad step\"
Sight,
You agree with Dr Richardson re Barbaro \"This is a single catastrophic accident.\"
Copyright © 2006 The Blood-Horse, Inc. All Rights h Dr. Richarson\"
Ron?????
Sightsound, I respect your analysis of this situation, but I really don\'t think it was a misstep that caused the initial fracture in the sequence of the breakdown.
While it\'s true that workouts and training remodel bone, the reforming and flattening of the bottom surface of the condylar is a source of trouble in many horses. It remodels the wrong way in soft boned horses (generally young horses.) It flattens out and creates edges, which tear through the soft tissue below it.
The amount of training you describe Barbaro undergoing wasn\'t necessarily hardening his bones. Time and maturity count for a lot in that process and this was still a young horse.
Ultimately, it doesn\'t matter who among us is understanding the situation correctly---or best for that matter. We lost a good one in this colt.
By the way did you see the x-ray of the fused leg and screws? Very interesting stuff, especially the screw through the sesamoid. I would not have guessed that was possible.
miff Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> \"i cant imagine the insurance company will want to
> pay off if matz and company ran a lame horse.\"
>
>
> Imallin,
>
>
> I do not recall anyone remotely suggesting he
> looked lame.You thought so?Regarding insurance,
> the company does their own evaluation and they
> issued a policy, assuming there is one.The
> conspiracy theory would have great credence if
> this horse \"failed\" insurance evaluation and is
> not insured.
>
>
> Mike
>
I\'ve never raced a horse and don\'t know what covenants Horse Life Insurance Policies contain. However, I\'m quite certain they contain some terminology that relieves the insurer of the obligation to pay should the horse be run, break down and die with a known dangerous condition. A ongoing disclosure provision if you will. Its impossible to believe that an insurer of 10 million or more, would say \"O.k., we insured him, run him as you please regardless of his condition.\" Theres just no way a lawyer would draft a contract policy to allow for that type of risk. He wouldn\'t subject his client to that risk.
There is going to be very little of substance that comes from the Track Vet. Larry Bramledge or Dr. Richardson, who is positioning himself to insulate his client and blow his own horn. Same for Edgar Prado, Michael Matz or Lael Stable. The only way they are going to elaborate upon this is a year down the road should Barbaro survive and be syndicated for stud. Don\'t even count upon it then. Richardson is not a magician and hes not a clairvoyant. He\'s an auto mechanic. He got his rear ended Mercedes into the body shop and he straightened the dings. Theres nothing he can add. He was not an eyewitness to the accident. He had no prior association. Theres nothing negative Richardson can or will say. You can rely upon the fact that everything out of his mouth will be neutral to positive for his client. End of story.
Barbaro was started on Turf and given lots of time between races. He was out of a Carson City mare. Carson City was not a bad sire, but was he a Classic Distance sire? and Did he get sound horses?. Who thinks those facts pointed to soundness and stamina? Granted we are generally talking soundness here. But, to have Stamina the horse has to be especially sound. Who really thinks the Belmont distance was going to be easy if Barbaro won the Preakness?
This was a carefully managed horse. He was carefully managed for a reason. The stable is not about to tell secrets.
Did you see the many tight turns Barbaro was given prior to loading?
Chuckles_the_Clown2 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> I\'ve never raced a horse and don\'t know what
> covenants Horse Life Insurance Policies contain.
> However, I\'m quite certain they contain some
> terminology that relieves the insurer of the
> obligation to pay should the horse be run, break
> down and die with a known dangerous condition. A
> ongoing disclosure provision if you will. Its
> impossible to believe that an insurer of 10
> million or more, would say \"O.k., we insured him,
> run him as you please regardless of his
> condition.\" Theres just no way a lawyer would
> draft a contract policy to allow for that type of
> risk. He wouldn\'t subject his client to that
> risk.
>
> There is going to be very little of substance that
> comes from the Track Vet. Larry Bramledge or Dr.
> Richardson, who is positioning himself to insulate
> his client and blow his own horn. Same for Edgar
> Prado, Michael Matz or Lael Stable. The only way
> they are going to elaborate upon this is a year
> down the road should Barbaro survive and be
> syndicated for stud. Don\'t even count upon it
> then. Richardson is not a magician and hes not a
> clairvoyant. He\'s an auto mechanic. He got his
> rear ended Mercedes into the body shop and he
> straightened the dings. Theres nothing he can add.
> He was not an eyewitness to the accident. He had
> no prior association. Theres nothing negative
> Richardson can or will say. You can rely upon the
> fact that everything out of his mouth will be
> neutral to positive for his client. End of story.
>
> Barbaro was started on Turf and given lots of time
> between races. He was out of a Carson City mare.
> Carson City was not a bad sire, but was he a
> Classic Distance sire? and Did he get sound
> horses?. Who thinks those facts pointed to
> soundness and stamina? Granted we are generally
> talking soundness here. But, to have Stamina the
> horse has to be especially sound. Who really
> thinks the Belmont distance was going to be easy
> if Barbaro won the Preakness?
>
> This was a carefully managed horse. He was
> carefully managed for a reason. The stable is not
> about to tell secrets.
>
>
>
>
>
Another spot on, after the fact, analyst.
Without any documented proof at all.
Tom
Imallin-
You speak with such conviction, so I am curious, what makes you an expert or authority on the matter? You know equine bone structure and it\'s makeup? Are you a vet by chance? If you are just another gambler on this site, those are quite bold statements. The Dr. Who Operated on Barbaro is a liar?
Your Zapruder theory is the horse had to run because it was the Preakness and they (Matz) knowingly ran an unsound horse? And that Prado did not do right by his horse the way Bailey did with horse last year in Saratoga (Bellamy Road i think) last year?
NC Tony
Why single out TVG when HRTV Stronach\'s racing TV carries Pimlico racing?
NC Tony
Bravo!!
I didn\'t make it out that he was a liar, i believe that he might not have known for sure if the horse was fragile before the race or not. Also, i don\'t want to use the word \'liar\' because in this game and in life in general, there are \'little white lies\' to protect people that don\'t want to get thrown to the wolves.
If the Doctor was a really nice guy, which i\'m sure he is and he really likes Michael Matz, why would he say \"yeah, the horse was flawed and thats why he broke down\' Thats like saying \"michael matz is to blame for running a horse he should have known was damaged\"
You have to take this stuff into context. At this point, all that matters is barbaro\'s health. Whether he was flawed before the race or not absolutely doesn\'t matter one iota to anyone except maybe the insurance companies and the morbidly curious.
I don\'t believe its fair to say that \"im calling the doctor a liar\" because that is sort of indicating that i believe he is running a dishonest practice. I\'m just saying that in order to protect trainer matz career, he said, \"it was a fluke\"
this doctor could ruin michael matz career if he said the guy ran a horse who was badly flawed.
No reason to throw matz under the bus and ruin his training career...just like the doctor wouldnt want anyone to ruin his livlehood.
Because TVG has a show called \'the works\'.
Sure, it could have been hrtv also. No reason they couldnt have done it either.
My Point is that by contract Magna Inc would have to let TVG televise at their (Magna) exclusive tracks. I doubt they get permission to do it at Pimlico.
NC Tony
>> Sight, You agree with Dr Richardson re Barbaro \"This is a single catastrophic accident.\"
Yes, I do.
ALM posted alot of good info on condylar fractures, and what was said is true and not uncommon in the least. The few abstracts I posted support his statements.
But bones can simply crack, too, without predisposing subtle flaws. Stress and strain. Physics. Limits breached.
I got cold chills the other night, thinking about if this had been a front leg. It would have been Go For Wand all over again.
I have never seen so many screws over so many joints. If this works, I\'ll find the article he publishes on it or the conference paper where he discusses it in detail and presents it to his peers.
The plate configuration is interesting, the scalloping to keep the plate off the periosteum.
This colt is going to need alot of prayers and luck from here on in.
NC Tony,
I think the horse is question was Noble Causeway owned by Len Riggio,italian kid via Bay Ridge, who became Chairman of Barnes & Noble.There was a tremendous furor when Bailey scratched the horse with a few minutes to post. Bailey said the horse was not \"right\" and refused to ride.
The horse vetted clean and nothing was found.Len and Zito were beside themselves with anger toward Bailey.Bailey stuck to his guns, the horse was not right.The horse worked fine after this incident was subsequently re-entered in a race and pulled up after an eighth or so(from memory) A nuclear scan was performed afterward.
My point. Jerry Bailey \"felt\" something and was not right so I guess my money would be on Prado(said the horse was fine pre race) as opposed to some who claim they saw something untoward but Prado, the state vet at the gate, and many of the the most highly informed racing eyes in the world, did not.
Mike
I\'ve Been wondering as well , w/ Barbaro\'s screws + plate along with the initial trauma itself and subsequent sugery , how adequate would the circulation be unless they\'ve done or plan do , a graft in and around the injured area . I haven\'t heard any estimates on nerve damage and if the horse progress in his recovery, convelesence and rehab , this undoubtably would become an issue - or so I would think ...
imailin, you are absolutely correct.. I\'m stunned at the number of naive people around here who do not believe a vet would lie to protect someone, and who think everything is always on the up and up.
Barbaro\'s wkt was at fair hill, so i guess tvg would need permission from fai to bring a camera there...not to mention Matz who i\'m sure would have to approve the video also.
Yeah, that makes sense, we both know stronach is, i wouldn\'t doubt he\'d say no to tvg on anything.
Its not even so much on the up and up per say, its just about a little white lie that doesn\'t matter in the long run to save a guys career and his livlehood.
Its not like the doctor is under oath at a criminal trial and has to say, \"yeah, i think the horse had a flaw\"
Also, you have to ask yourself this...who\'s asking? I mean, he\'s telling a media member this stuff, not congress. The media is the last person you are going to give privy information to...especially if it could jeopardize his career.
Lots of jocks will ride horses even if they feel they \'arent right\'. Bailey is an exception....because he\'s jerry bailey, he can do whatever he wants. If you don\'t like he could care less, don\'t put his name down if you don\'t like it.
Other lesser name jocks (basically everyone) might ride a horse...jocks don\'t want to get a reputation where trainers and owners are whispering, \"don\'t put that guy down, he\'ll scratch your horse\"
Think of a claiming horse who\'s has a claim entered and is lame...if the jock scratches the horse, the current connections eat the horse. If you put a jock down who will \'ride anything\' you know that if your horse warms up bad and he\'s going to be claimed, you will lose the horse.
Josh82-
No one who bets thoroughbreds believe everyone is legit. If they do they are naiive. But at the same token, and using the same logic as you in reverse, you are now insinuating that everyone conected to horse racing is unethical/on the take etc. That also cannot be true.
It\'s like any sterotypes you may want to find. let\'s try this one for example, anyone who goes to the racetrack and bets horses is a loser, degenerative gambler, broke, and a overall social outcast/misfit. Is that true? yeah sometimes- (leaving specific names out)
NC Tony
imallin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Other lesser name jocks (basically everyone) might
> ride a horse...jocks don\'t want to get a
> reputation where trainers and owners are
> whispering, \"don\'t put that guy down, he\'ll
> scratch your horse\"
>
> Think of a claiming horse who\'s has a claim
> entered and is lame...if the jock scratches the
> horse, the current connections eat the horse. If
> you put a jock down who will \'ride anything\' you
> know that if your horse warms up bad and he\'s
> going to be claimed, you will lose the horse.
>
>
Interesting. How many were involved in the shake for Barbaro?
Guys are just trained to ride any horse no matter what. These jocks have such HUGE ego\'s that they feel that even if the horse breaks down, they have the ability to avoid harms way because they are so athletic, have such great reflexes, etc.
Barbaro was going for the Triple Crown. No jockey on earth is EVER going to scratch a horse going for the TC no matter what.
NO MATTER WHAT.
imallin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Guys are just trained to ride any horse no matter
> what. These jocks have such HUGE ego\'s that they
> feel that even if the horse breaks down, they have
> the ability to avoid harms way because they are so
> athletic, have such great reflexes, etc.
>
This is ridiculous, for openers. And, Prado deserves more credit than he is getting from you & some others (here & elsewhere.) You think this was something more than a bad step breakdown at the most unfortunate of moments, fine. But please stop with the comparisons betw. the Derby winner & your avg. Penn National claimer. I don\'t believe I\'ve ever encountered more histrionics from seemingly informed people.
I\'m not talking about Prado. I\'m just saying that for people to think that jocks won\'t ride a horse if they feel the slightest thing that might be wrong...these guys are riders, they don\'t make a living scratching horses out of post parades.
IM
They can\'t make a living if the are paralyzed or worse dead either.
NC Tony
imallin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I\'m not talking about Prado. I\'m just saying that
> for people to think that jocks won\'t ride a horse
> if they feel the slightest thing that might be
> wrong...these guys are riders, they don\'t make a
> living scratching horses out of post parades.
If you\'re not talking about Prado, then who are you talking about? This thread is titled \"6 Minutes prior to post in the Preakness...\" You\'ve previously stated:
\"Think of a claiming horse who\'s has a claim entered and is lame...if the jock scratches the horse, the current connections eat the horse. If you put a jock down who will \'ride anything\' you know that if your horse warms up bad and he\'s going to be claimed, you will lose the horse.\"
What does any of this nonsense have to do w/ Barbaro or the Preakness? You\'re wasting everyone\'s time w/ this stuff.
I agree with you tony
Each jock determines his own fate. I just know there are a lot of crazy ones out there who will ride ANY horse.
First of all you are wasting everyones time because my posts cite my opinions, your posts just are dead air telling me that MY posts are \'nonsense\'.
Prado might have felt something but wasn\'t going to scratch a TC contender. That was my point.
What was your point exactly?
I think that jocks may be more apt to ride a horse with a rear leg problem than a front leg problem. If the rear leg goes, the jock has a much better chance to NOT tumble head over heels and go head first into the ground. I\'d have to imagine something would have to be pretty severe to scratch a Derby winner who is 1-2 in the preakness.
There\'s no possible way any jock would say he felt ANYTHING...especially after what happened. Why would prado say, \"yeah, he felt a little funny, but i decided to ride him anyway\"
Every top jock has ridden thousands of horses, if they scratched every horse who felt even a little off, they\'d be scratching a heck of a lot of horses.
Jocks don\'t want to get the rep of a guy who\'s scared to ride anything less than a \'perfect horse\'.
Your posts are nonsense.
That\'s enough, children. Everybody knock it off.
That is by far the most intelligent observation I\'ve read so far.
Sometimes the simplest explanation is the most likely.
When I think back to Smarty Jones\' Triple Crown Bid,Barbaro reminds me a little of his
in a sense that people tried to reason all the ways he got beat in the Belmont, etc. All the riders went after Elliot, all that BS. Elliot rode him exactly the way he had in every race, and he rode him perfectly in the Belmont.
He was so sore he couldn\'t go on and finish like he had -- all the drugs keep them going for a while, but the tracks are too hard,and the triple crown toll is too high -- they can\'t last.
Whether horses were stronger years ago is debateable, but what\'s not is all the drugs that are around now. We push these animals to unnatural expectations and then we wonder why they fall apart. A horse like Barbaro, who raced so infrequently, gee, why would they give him so much rest between starts when they could have been running him at the highest level of the sport for all that cash?
It\'s such a tough question to answer.
Someone should seriously rethink the whole Triple Crown Mystique. Why do we care so much about it? It\'s rediculous and so damaging to the horses -- we all get so caught up in the spectacle and tradition. It\'s a brutal event and it takes no prisoners. The braver the animal the harder he/she goes down.
re-post of alms excellent post on the subject
alm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I posted a few messages about this subject, so
> this is a repeat.
>
> Those of you who assume something was wrong with
> this horse before the race are quite correct. A
> condylar fracture, which was the cause of the bad
> step and the subsequent fractures to Barbaro\'s
> sesamoid and pastern, occurs from preexisting
> conditions.
>
> It has to do with immature or soft bones and the
> reformation or flattening of the condylar in the
> ankle or pastern socket, due to the pounding of
> training and racing. Tale of the Cat is the
> poster boy of what happens if you stop on a
> promising juvenile and allow his bones time to
> harden with age. He came back super and achieved
> a good career.
>
> Nobody connected with Barbaro will want to admit
> they knew about his problem, but almost all of us
> would have done the same thing they did. This was
> a very fast horse capable of winning at the
> highest level and the Triple Crown only comes once
> in a horse\'s life.
>
> He was medicated to avoid the pain and showed no
> gimpiness in his stride as a result. He was raced
> lightly to keep the damage to a minimum, but it
> was getting worse all the time and I suppose it
> eventually got so bad that Prado could feel it in
> the warmup.
>
> Basically this involves damage to the soft tissue
> below the condylar, which is invisible to ordinary
> xrays. Fractures occur when the tissue is worn
> completely through and bone hits bone.
>
> I lost a horse in a race this way and learned what
> I am writing about through research. You could
> look it up.
>
> Those of you naive enough to think these vets know
> everything and are always honest should just keep
> in mind what some vets bring to this business.
> It\'s not their job to protect the breed, but
> rather to protect their client\'s investments...and
> occasionally more.
>
>