I note with interest that the 3 finalists for Eclipse Award Sprinter are Lost in the Fog, the deceased Saratoga County and BC Sprint winner Silver Train.
Of those three, I would say that Silver Train would get my vote based on his BC Sprint victory and LITF\'s non- effort in that same race.
Taste of Paradise may be as qualified as any of the 3 finalists off of his GI win in the 6 furlong Vosburgh and hard luck near miss in the BC Sprint.
I think it would be unfortunate to name LITF the years top sprinter. His top performances were against some fairly anonymous 3YOs. The award is given to top sprinter, not top 3YO sprinter.
In an unrelated matter, does any jock have worse luck than Joe Bravo (fractured 2 vertebrae opening day at the Gulf)?
Is it too late to vote for Vince Young......
SC:
LOL. The game last night and the Ohio State/ND game on Tuesday were both dynamite games. With regards to Penn State/ Fla State, I felt bad for the 2 alta kocker coaches who were kept awake way past their bedtime by inept placekickers.
It\'s Sprinter of the Year, not of the Fall.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
What amazed me about VY is he didn\'t visually seem fast but he glided by would-be tacklers almost, it what seemed to me, in slow motion as if he was invisible.
And he can pass.....I\'ll never bet against this guy again. Asfufh
Texas getting 7 1/2 points was ridiculous. Their TG sheet had them at a -3 with USC running -4. Betting this game was like betting the El Conejo at Santa Anita on Monday. Living in No Cal, it wasn\'t very hard to find people laying the points. Just like horses getting overhyped and going off at short odds, USC was your typical low odds terrible favorite. What an absolutely jaw dropping performance VY displayed yesterday, I think he ran a new top.
JB:
I understand your point.
To me trainer Gilchrist gambled and lost. He came into the BC Sprint in a position to lock up the Eclipse if he won his only race against top quality competition.
Unfortunately, not only did he not win, but he did not factor.
JB, I\'m a purist like you. I don\'t like to see Eclipse Awards given to animals off of one or two performances, but this seems to be the way the animals who are running at the top levels are being trained these days.
Blame it on the figure makers. Everyone is so preoccupied with campaigning lightly, training up to races, avoiding the dreaded bounce.
If racehorses have gotten faster, they have certainly become more fragile. And none of us looks at Pletcher, Frankel and Dutrow and sees Whiteley, Stephens or Whittingham.
Rich: I agree with what appear to be your sentiments regarding the excess hype surrounding Lost In The Fog's claim at divisional honors, but there is nothing unusual in choosing a 3YO who has dominated his contemporaries to a far greater extent than any other older horse has his competition.
I also think it is incorrect to say he was no factor in the BC sprint. To be no factor is to never threaten or enter contention at any stage of a race. LOTG fought for the lead 4-wide, put away his inside competition to gain the lead by the quarter pole and held it until he tired in the final eight. Admittedly, this was a sub-par performance for him and cost him any consideration for HOTY. However, an excusably tired final eight in one race cannot negate an entire brilliant unbeaten season of 8 straight wins (10 straight lifetime) – particularly when none of his rivals could match his consistency for the year in the sprint (or any other) division.
I think the real controversy lies in the decision for HOTY between Afleet Alex and Saint Liam. I think Saint Liam has the stronger claim but will giving him the award send the wrong message regarding Dutrow's methods?
Bob
I\'m not a LITF fan, but not having LITF among the nominees for top 3yo is a major injustice. Which dopes decide the finalists? They should all be removed!
Bobphilo:
I am on record as admiring Gilchrist\'s management of LITF throughout the year. He criscrossed the country to duck whatever competition may have been out there and never tried to run him past his optimal distance range (6f -7f). He will hopefully return sound as a 4YO and show us what he is made of.
If Gilchrist\'s intention was to win the Eclipse, he should have either (a) run LITF in a Grade 1 or 2 against older horses before the BC and/or (b) not run LITF in the BC at all (he could have used the supplemental nomination fee as an out)(I believe BC rules state that he will not have to pay the supplemental fee again).
With regards to \"Dutrow\'s methods\" as far as I know St. Liam was tested both prior to and after the BC Classic. Maybe someone will analyze a frozen sample of his blood ten years from now and determine that he was \"doped\", but under the current testing regimen, he won the race \"clean\".
Bobphilo:
Sorry... double dipped
Richiebee,
I don\'t understand how you can say he ducked competition all year, only to run in the BC Sprint at the end of the year. Wouldn\'t he have skipped the BC behind the supplemental excuse if he were ducking the competition?
So what you\'re saying is that the Riva Ridge (GR2) isn\'t a worthy race?? The King\'s Bishop (GR1) isn\'t a worthy race? There was a possibility that Bellamy Road was going to enter that race and they still ran. They ran in the top races for 3yo sprinters across the country, told everyone well in advance where they would run........ is it their fault that the 3YO sprint division was weak this year?? Why didn\'t ST show up for these graded stakes races?? Because Dutrow\'s vet didn\'t get ahold of him yet??
What kind of campaign did the great Silver Train have?? He raced exclusively against 3YO with the exception of an allowance NW1X against older bums. He won a 1 turn GR2 mile at Belmont setting fractions of 23.5, 46.7, 1:10. He won the BC sitting off of a torrid pace and was good enough to win while the speed horses knocked each other out. ST is a good horse and ran a good race that day while campaigning exclusively on the East Coast against competition no better than what LITF ran against with the exception of High Fly (in the aforementioned race with the soft fractions). He also lost to Santana Strings who LITF dusted earlier in the year. You mention that Gilchrist never raced him past his optimal distance, how many 2 turn races did ST run in?? Zero, and the 1 1/16 race he did run in he was up the track (albeit the race was a GR1). The 1 mile race was a Belmont was a glorified sprint.
LITF lost in the BC, but that doesn\'t mean he\'s a bum or just another horse. He\'s a front running speed horse, and when they don\'t break sharply or get bumped around down the backstretch it takes them a little off of their game. Gilchrist also stated that LITF was uncharacteristically acting up in the Paddock that afternoon. One loss and some of you East Coast guys can\'t wait to dismiss a West Coast horse. Reminds me of all of the whining about Easy Goer.
How good he really is remains to be seen. You are correct about the competition, but how many 3yos go looking for older horses until later in the year?? Lets see how he runs as a 4yo before we dismiss him. He did lead into the stretch of the BC while 4 wide on a racetrack unlike any other in America. I would love to see him up against ST or any other top sprinter on a regular racetrack with a normal run up to the turn. I don\'t think you\'ve heard the last of this horse.
LITF may not be the a very strong Eclipse winner, but he certainly accomplished more than any of the others. His BC wasn\'t really that bad a race as he dueled in a fast pace while wide, and the day was even a possible anti speed day in my opinion.
PDub:
I appreciate your passionate response.
1) If I had a vote, and all I really had to go on was the one race where they raced head to head, who would I vote for?
2) There is no East Coast v West Coast issue here; if you read my original post I think I said I may have voted for Taste of Paradise (not a finalist) another West Coast horse who came East. And as much of a Shug fan as I am, I was never much of an Easy Goer fan; EG never presented much of a pari- mutuel opportunity.
3)\"He\'s a front running speed and when they don\'t break sharply or get bumped around down the backstretch it takes them a little off their game\". Champions should be able to overcome adversity.
4) The Riva Ridge and the King\'s Bishop, like the Vosburgh (won by Taste of Paradise) and the Jerome (Silver Train) are all graded stakes, but Graded Stakes aint what they used to be.
5) As a two year old, Silver Train split the field in the Champagne Stakes at Belmont, 4th beaten 13 lengths. 2nd in that race, Afleet Alex; third in that race, Sun King. LITF\'s 2YO races were at what I like to call \"leaky roofs\", at Golden Gate and at Turf Paradise.
6) My original post was MY OPINION. It is also my opinion that LITF will ultimately (and in my opinion, wrongfully) be named Eclipse Award winning Sprinter, a title I will look forward to seeing him defend in 06.
Richiebee,
No way do I believe Gilchrist tried to dodge anybody. As P-Dub pointed out, if he just wanted an easy way to back into an Eclipse award, he wouldn't have supplemented to the BC. True he faced weaker competition against 3YOs and if any of the older sprinters had come anywhere close to dominating their division as LITF did, then they should get the nod, but they didn't. Yes he was kept sprinting but fact that he never raced beyond 7 furlongs should have no bearing on the Eclipse for the sprint division. In addition his spectacular winning streak brought more positive attention to the sport this year than any other horse except for Afleet Alex.
I do agree with you about Taste of Paradise being a better candidate than Silver Train. He at least had won a GR. 1 sprint and should have been the BC Sprint winner if the stewards had shown the guts to take down Silver Train for the blatant interference that cost TOP the race.
As for Saint Liam and Dutrow, I'm not implying that anything illegal was done in his Classic victory and I grudgingly have to consider him the choice for Horse of the Year. It just leaves a bad taste and sends the wrong message when someone who's methods are, shall we say, questionable is rewarded. I'm not just talking about the numerous drug allegations. IMO, entering a couple of "goons" owned by a 3rd party, just so his horse can, as he admits, have an "easy victory" in the Woodward, is worse than dodging competition.
Bob
I don\'t remember Afleet Alex beating older horses or winning a BC race, but an awful lot of people think he should be HOTY. If the award was about who had the most ability neither LITF or ST would be the right choice, but it\'s about accomplishment, and given LITF\'s record, he should get it hands down.
\" Do you give the horse its might?
Do you clothe its neck with mane?
Do you make it leap like a locust?
Its majestic snorting is terrible,
It paws violently and exults mightily,
It goes out to meet the weapons,
It laughs at fear and is not dismayed,
It does not turn back from the sword,
the flashing spear and the javelin
With fierceness and rage it swallows the ground
When the trumpet sounds it says \"Aha!\"
From a distance it smells the battle,
the thunder of the captains and the shouting...\"
.. or why the Bible, bourbon and the Racing Form shouldn\'t be kept on the same desk. I think its Psalm 38, but there must be a lot of people out there with a better biblical background than me who can tell where that passage is from.
Bobphilo, \"bringing positive attention to the sport\" should not be an Eclipse criteria, or as the erstwhile Classhandicapper might say, these good vibes should not be \"baked into\" the Eclipse decision making process.
As to Dutrow\'s ways and means, he was given St Liam with one mandate: Win the Breeder\'s Cup. Mission accomplished. Unfortunately not all of our trainers can be likeable in a grandfatherly way (like Charlie Whittingham) or likeable in a mischevious way (Woody Stephens) or urbane and polished (like the Whiteleys).
Its about the horses.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I don\'t remember Afleet Alex beating older horses
> or winning a BC race, but an awful lot of people
> think he should be HOTY. If the award was about
> who had the most ability neither LITF or ST would
> be the right choice, but it\'s about
> accomplishment, and given LITF\'s record, he should
> get it hands down.
Really, don\'t think LITF deserves consideration for the eclipse. He\'d have a slightly stronger argument if he\'s skipped the B.C. Sprint, but having run in it and having been exposed as padding his record in a weak restricted class, LITF\'s standing slips markedly.
Experienced handicappers knew the Sprint was going to be LITF\'s Waterloo. Oh, I know, I know, past posting again...lol
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=223638&postcount=53
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=223654&postcount=55
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=223769&postcount=59
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=223849&postcount=66
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=224098&postcount=77
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=224254&postcount=89
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=224282&postcount=91
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=224489&postcount=106
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=224566&postcount=109
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=224577&postcount=112
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=225525&postcount=123
http://www.paceadvantage.com/forum/showpost.php?p=225714&postcount=130
And Yes, a healthy Alex would have beat Flower Alley by a half pole in the Classic too.
Just my luck.
The prodigal son returns and jumps right in my foxhole.
Happy New Year pal.
Richie, that was pretty funny.
Richiebee,
Thanks for the interesting passage. Looks like something worth remembering. I'm no biblical scholar, but it looks like something that might have been written about an Assyrian Chariot horse. Any historians here.
While I don't think bringing positive interest to the sport should be a major criteria for an Eclipse award, if it was done by way of a significant accomplishment, as LITF did, it is a definite plus in the horses favor. Like Jerry said, "it's about accomplishment".
My problem with Dutrow has nothing to do with personalities or him not being as avuncular as the past greats. As I said earlier, I would not let my dislike for Dutrow's methods prevent me from voting Saint Liam horse of the year, however we should also keep in mind that, sometimes, extreme single-mindedness and ruthlessness can bring success to an individual but be hurtful to the sport.
Bob
Job 39...who can quote from a more appropriate source than this for the long-suffering handicapper? http://www.hope.edu/academic/religion/bandstra/BIBLE/JOB/JOB39.HTM
Dennis:
Thank you for the proper cite of \"Do you give the horse its might...\".
I haven\'t used the Old or New Testament as handicapping tools yet, but it could come to that.
Richiebee,
Just remember the Old Testament is for Harness Racing, the New for Thorobreds.