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General Category => Ask the Experts => Topic started by: JohnTChance on December 09, 2005, 01:26:06 PM

Title: O'Neill and anabolic steroids...
Post by: JohnTChance on December 09, 2005, 01:26:06 PM
In Saturday\'s Racing Form, columnist Jay Hovdey mentions that trainer Doug O\'Neill\'s WHILLY was withdrawn from consideration for Sunday\'s $2.3 million Hong Kong Cup because the animal tested positive for an anabolic steroid. [O\'Neill said WHILLY was given a \"routine\" dose of the steroid (for therapeutic purposes of course) and that it was \"just bad timing.\"] Hovdey goes on to recall the Hong Kong Jockey Club\'s embarrassment in 1996, when they invited DA HOSS to run in the big race there, but the Breeder\'s Cup winner failed the steroid ban and was sent home.

Does anyone in his right mind think that STEVIE WONDERBOY, O\'Neill\'s Breeder\'s Cup Juvenille winner, who zoomed to a preposterous -1 ThoroGraph to win that race, was NOT injected? That his big move forward that day was provoked by the colt\'s \"natural development\" only?

JohnTChance
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids...
Post by: basket777 on December 10, 2005, 04:18:32 AM
Rules in the USA    Horses are not tested for Steriods in the USA. If a trainer has a product that decreases the amount of time a horse takes to recover should he/she use it if legal?  Steriods do just that. Like as in a humans they do not promote anything without work. They just let you workout more often. So the answer to your question was steriods used on the horse? Most likely however they do not make you run faster they just let you prepare to run faster.Natural development? No but within the rules. Quite \"FRANKLY\" if a trainer is not using the best avaible legal science he/she is behind the others who do. Therein lies the question. Again who is and who isn\'t?
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids...
Post by: miff on December 10, 2005, 04:50:35 AM
John T. Paranoid

Not EVERY horse that runs a huge figure is juiced,only some. There are a few horses with great natural ability.Some of my trainers friends use legal steroids.The difference is that the juice guys use steroids in conjunction with blood dope and or super illegal pain meds.
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids...
Post by: richiebee on December 10, 2005, 07:35:20 AM
My opinion is that Racing with a capital \"R\" is not in a good position to take on drug issues at this point in time.

The issue would have to be confronted by an alliance among the 4 major US racing circuits - NYRA, Cal, Fla and KY - and each of these circuits currently have internal issues which need addressing, or are in a state of flux.

In the current climate it would probably take a good deal of expense to attack the drug issues, or at least identify the issues. The result of stricter enforcement would eventually be fewer starts per horse per year (horses\' recuperative powers would arguably be reduced without chemical aid). In essence, track operators will be asked to make an initial capital investment which will eventually lead to decreased revenues (smaller fields = decreased handle).

An initial capital outlay which DECREASES revenues is pretty hard to tolerate even in boom times.

If drugs in racing bother you, Party Poker On!, because they are not going anywhere anytime soon. Racing with a capital \"R\" is not strong enough at this juncture to take on the issue. As TGJB and others have pointed out, the more \"resourceful\" trainers and vets have already figured out how to \"beat\" the pre- race detention barns.
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids...
Post by: TGJB on December 10, 2005, 09:55:27 AM
Richie-- on top of that, the tracks don\'t want a scandal. One problem with that approach is that at some point they are going to get a really big one anyway, and their neglect will then make them look really, really bad, and hurt the game.

To me, the most interesting thing about the steroid story was a comment O\' Neill made: \"And there also seems to be an effect on improving decreased levels of oxygen-carrying red blood cells\".

Really. How about improving normal levels?
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids...
Post by: bobphilo on December 10, 2005, 10:43:29 AM
This from the Anadrol website -  \"AnadrolĀ®-50 is used in the treatment of anemias caused by deficient red cell production. It belongs to a class of drugs called anabolic steroids, which are similar to the male hormone testosterone.

AnadrolĀ®-50 enhances the production and urinary excretion of erythropoietin (EPO, a chemical in your body that can increase the production of new red blood cells), in patients with anemias due to bone marrow failure, and it often stimulates red blood cell production in patients with anemias due to deficient red cell production.\"

When used for purposes other than diagnosed anemia, it constitutes \"blood doping\" and is a performance enhancing drug.

Bob

Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids...
Post by: TGJB on December 10, 2005, 11:00:59 AM
Bob-- very, very interesting.
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids... - Just tell us!
Post by: JohnTChance on December 10, 2005, 02:55:16 PM
Pilgrims,

It\'s the often-expressed Dr. Harthill theme of \"hey, these animals NEED the stuff to run.\" versus the idea of a no-medication world that levels the playing field. The veterinary lobby is strong and we all know that you can\'t go home again.

For me, it boils down to this: You want a racing world with all the pharmaceuticals? All the crap? Fine! You can medicate all you want. JUST TELL US! Just tell us - the poor schnooks that gamble - what\'s being injected into a horse\'s system! JUST TELL US!

The Form uses an L for Lasix. And a B for Bute. Add these symbols:

X - for rocket-fuel X-15
Y - for steroid Y
Z - for muscle-relaxer Z
P - Peppermints
P(am) - Peppermints in the morning
P(pm) - Peppermints at night
Etc..

I know this is preposterous. And you\'re all rolling your eyes. But still...

Just tell us.

JohnTChance
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids... - Just tell us!
Post by: NoCarolinaTony on December 12, 2005, 08:34:02 PM
John,

I like the just tell us concept. Would be novel.

I\'ve been talking about EPO for some time in the game as I think this is the most prevalant move up drug for horses. But what about Cortisone?

I am an avid golfer and injured my left wrist this year.  Continued to play in pain for over half year and compensated and ultimately hurt my left shoulder as well. Was treated with cortisone injections in both left wrist and shoulder and I was playing back to my 8 handicap in 4 days. Is cortisone legal in horse racing? I would think the effect it had on me has to work on a horse similarly with a soar leg or shoulder as well and run like new when injected. It does wear off over time.

NC Tony
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids... - Just tell us!
Post by: bobphilo on December 12, 2005, 08:56:14 PM
Tony,

Cortisone is a catabolic (tearing down) steroid so it\'s effect is somewhat opposite to that of the anabolic (building up) steroids, which increase muscle mass. Cortisone and cortisol are released when the body is under stress to reduce inflammtion and pain in the joints and actually tears down tissue, including muscle tissue, for energy fuel when the body is in an emergency mode. Useful short term, but bad long term.

Bob
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids... - Just tell us!
Post by: TGJB on December 13, 2005, 10:10:39 AM
Tony-- unless things have changed, virtually every time a horse is \"tapped\" (meaning fluid is removed from a joint to ease pressure), cortisone is injected. It helps a lot short term, and one of the problems with betting cheaper horses is that it is done pretty often, and they don\'t tell you when-- which accounts for some of the erratic form patterns.

The problem is that cortisone eats up bone-- if you do it too many times, you don\'t have a joint left. Back when I was running a claiming stable, there were certain guys you did not claim from, because they took a very short term approach (tried to get a few wins, to hell with the horse in the long run), and tapped like crazy.

There have been lots of advances in sportsmedicine in general, and even when I was in that end of things they were starting to use things like synthetic joint fluid-- they would tap to take out what was in there (which with problem joints often contained blood), and put in the healthier stuff, which did not degenate bone. It didn\'t have all the short term effects of cortisone, but it was better in the long run. My guess is that there have been a lot of developments since then.
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids... - Just tell us!
Post by: JohnTChance on December 13, 2005, 05:52:16 PM
Tony,

As Bob and Jerry have said, cortisone is a short-term fix. Bad stuff. The beginning of the end for a horse. Corticosteroids have side effects that impact the joint, effect bone and ultimately cause breakdowns. My understanding is that a product called ADEQUAN, which replaces the synovial fluids in the joint, is the \"good stuff.\" Apparently, no drastic side effects there.

By the way, about muscles and recovery times... it\'s been widely reported that veteran baseball pitcher Roger Clemens has kept up an incredible workout regime to maintain his physical fitness over the years. I wonder what vitamins, supplements etc. the \"Rocket\'s\" trainer has him on.

John T Chance
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids... - Just tell us!
Post by: davidrex on December 13, 2005, 05:56:21 PM
Mushrooms John...mushrooms
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids... - Just tell us!
Post by: NoCarolinaTony on December 13, 2005, 08:22:48 PM
Bob Jerry and John,

Thanks for the reply. My Dr would not inject me a second time when the drug wore off for the exact reason you stated. It is a shot term fix and has long term health risks. He put me on a workout regimen to stregnthen the tendon in my wrist vs another shot.

Seems that this type of disclosure should be made to the betting public if this is a permitted practice as I can attest, if I wasn\'t playing in pain, I played back to my A game. And if a horse feels the same way this should be disclosed to us the betting public, at least we can project an improvement could be expected in the injected horse.

EPO for sure is a different issue but it also is prevalant and must be addressed.

NC Tony
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids... - Just tell us!
Post by: NoCarolinaTony on December 13, 2005, 08:36:53 PM
John,

In regards to the Rocket comment, I do believe that he has defied the odds of performance for a power pitcher at least in my lifetime.

NC Tony
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids... - Just tell us!
Post by: richiebee on December 13, 2005, 10:16:44 PM
One of the encouraging developments I read about over the summer was that a product which restores synovial fluid (hyaluronic acid?) for equines was made available to be administered orally.

Tapping and injecting horses\' knees, ankles and hocks is an inhumane stop gap measure. Continuous injections of whatever nature degrade an animal\'s immune system. Once you begin to tap and inject a horse\'s joints, a clock starts ticking; when the clock strikes 12, the animal who has endured numerous invasive procedures is usually crippled and without any real value as a racehorse.

I wish that some of the people who think a jockey flailing away on an animal in the stretch is inhumane could follow a vet on his rounds at any given race track.
Title: Re: O'Neill and anabolic steroids...
Post by: Barry Irwin on December 16, 2005, 05:31:29 PM
What are you guys trying to do, put the drug companies out of business? Geez!