All the mathematics being flung about; I thought maybe a \"Seat of the Pants\" topic might interest some of us.Don\'t get me wrong,that which is being discussed has captured my interest,unfortuneatly my comprehension tends to lag.
Have you noticed some of the \"old school\" trainers making a comeback in last couple years? Lets iso. on nick...10% trainer but w/great owners...bad 1st time out...much better 2nd out....good 90+ days during time when most owners believed in credo:a horse can\'t make any money standing in a stall.
Now old nikie has pushed his avg. to 15% which is incredible when you consider how many seasons he languished at 10%.....oh did I mention he wins w/firsters now? not to mention move-ups on acquisitions....And whats up w/Mary Lou sending her second flight to nicks\' asst.?
Now Mr. Mott has arisen, and so help me he is showing the identical traits visible w/Zito.
What if the answer to all chemical improvements is to just let it settle into a free market and the very wealthy can buy up patents and elixers to be used and distributed not unlike breeding rights
Every Derby Day and B.C. could be evaluated in a similar fashion sportscasters constantly hand over the World Series to Mr. Steinbrenner every spring.
Someone could come up w/the Chemical Graph, showing us who has access to what,which horses seem to react most favorably to specific additives and a list of patented drugs w/their generic names laid opposite.
But getting back to the title of this mushroomed infused essay....please don\'t say that Mott hasn\'t had the stock...for if he has it now ,these animals aren\'t only supremely blessed, they are running even faster than their altered competition.
PARTYpokerON!
Mott has kept the move ups strictly on the grass, so he is known as a turf trainer-specialist. I don\'t believe it. Suddenly all of his stock starts running out of their minds? Sure...
When Cigar finally retired from Mott\'s clutches, Cigars sperm was so malformed that vets had never seen anything like it, consequently Cigar never produced a single off-spring. Just a fluke of nature or an overabundance of Mott\'s secret applejuice??
Do you think maybe Mott has been pushed to the edge by wealthy owners with the finest/expensive stock to retrieve the grade I\'s that have eluded these great champions? can you even blame the aristocracy of horse racing to level the playing field?....would the result of major races return to the form we are accustomed to?
PARTYpokerON!
Of all the poppycock threads I\'ve ever read on line, this one takes the cake.
Davidrex--if you tried to make this satire, you couldn\'t have done a finer job.
But, unfortunately, you are serious!
Bill Mott is unquestionably the last Boy Scout out there and he isn\'t going to chuck his ethics at this stage of the proceedings.
Here is the answer to the riddle of why his horses have started running: Mott, after years of getting the cream of the Paulson crop handed to him on a silver platter, lost his meal ticked.
Mott has had to go back to work!
That\'s it--end of story. Period.
Mott has proven many times over that he is the best grass trainer in America with the possible exception of Bobby Frankel.
He got complacent. Now he wants to win again. He is concentrating.
You are right about one thing concerning those who do or did cheat with drugs: now that the field has leveled to a certain degree, the trainers who couldn\'t get arrested are now finding themselves back in the winners circle.
If I have said this once, I have said this a million times: take all the drugs away and Bobby Frankel wins any title and any race he wants, because he is the best. Well, that goes for Mott, too.
All the real horsemen will reassert themselves when all of the drugs are gone--if that ever happens.
I have one suggestion for Davidrex and those who share his viewpoint--try to show a little respect for a guy like Mott, who is a classy guy and has worked his ass off.
Mott deserves the total respect of the racing community, even among sicko gamblers.
Irwins\' response to this thread was obviously given in a moment of fight or flight.
No accusations,merely having his patterns in front of me and thinking how odd that two \"old line\" trainers could change their m.o. so drastically.
Mr. irwin, the last time someone called the bread and butter of this game sicko gamblers he was giving out free milkshakes in cal.
I can respect your loyalty to the game but can\'t possibly feel you were giving an unbiased opinion to the trainers I was discussing.
Dave, just because I called you a sicko gambler does not mean that I categorize other who bet as such.
I have no allegience to Mott and have not had a horse within him in years.
Mr. Irwin I noticed that you moved Dynatonia to Weaver from Dickinson. Any specific reason that you can share with us? Horse obviously moved up first time for Weaver when it won nicely.
Dutrofan,
Never heard of Dynatonia, never had a horse with Weaver.
When I sent this thread thru it was meant to be about the \"old line\" owners and the fact that there was funding for testing both in Cal. and N.Y. from private sources.
This seemed to clear up for a short time.But of course it only pushed the \"evil-doers\" to more drastic measures.
Sorry interpretation was lacking on my part but it seems to be the price we pay for intenet chatting.
like this nag of his in the ninth can just run off with no juice?. this is the biggest pig in the race..
Cubfan,
You are mixing metaphors, which blurs the point you tried to make. Perhaps you should try the Greyhounds--they\'re all dogs.
Barry Irwin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> If I have said this once, I have said this a
> million times: take all the drugs away and Bobby
> Frankel wins any title and any race he wants,
> because he is the best. Well, that goes for Mott,
> too.
>
Pure Unadultered Bull Shit. You better stick to buying horses, which is a usurious gig, but one where an ounce of luck will offset a ton of acumen. Without his \"Turn of the Century\" Edge, Robert Frankel is a mediocre dirt track trainer, conceding he is a substantially better grass trainer. The two do not always go hand in hand, unless the mojo is flowing. Take away Steve Allday (His Vet) and don\'t replace him with like kind and Frankel disappears.
too funny
Chuckles, not only are you too funny, but so is your history, as Frankel\'s resurgence from temporary obscurity at the turn of the century came prior to his association with the aforementioned Dr. Steve Allday.
And, as far as I can tell, Dr. Allday has more than one client. If Frankel was Steve\'s only client, your argument would hold water, instead of this smelly gas we call conventional wisdom.
Frankel is the best trainer of ANY kind of horse they run in America for the past four decades.
Your jokes are pretty good. Who writes your material, Pat Robertson\'s psychiatrist?
And, as for your suggestion that I lack acumen and am merely a recipient of Lady Luck, the record would belie your notion.
You better stick to making jellies, Chuckles. And for Godsakes, improve your cellophane wrapper, because your candies are as stale as your lame jokes.
Barry -
If you read this board regularly, you\'ve obviously read the observation (from sources who should know) that the horses in Frankel\'s barn all moved forward significantly at about the same time. I\'m not sure, but I\'m guessing this occurred in the summer of 2001. The explanation most commonly suggested for this phenomenon is pharmacological. Do you have another?
BitPlayer
I would not discount what you wrote and I have echoed similar sentiments, however to attribute it all to Dr. Steve Allday would be a mistake. That was my point.
Barry Irwin Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I would not discount what you wrote and I have
> echoed similar sentiments, however to attribute it
> all to Dr. Steve Allday would be a mistake. That
> was my point.
Ok,I get it now ;Frankel is the best trainer using illegal substances in the western hemisphere!
Irwin,why don\'t you just mosy down to the White House and get a job as a fake in the press corps...if your really good..you might even get nominated to the Supreme Court...never trust a man w/2 first names.
Sorry, but if Allday was retained by historically low percentage trainers at NYRA, like John Candlin or Pat Kelly or Gary Sciacca-- all who have somehow survived on the NYRA circuit while losing races at a 95% clip over the last 5 years-- they would not suddenly become winners.
At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Pletcher, Frankel and Dutrow procure high class stock on behalf of owners who are willing to spend money to compete at the highest levels; these trainers in turn spend the additional money necessary to procure top notch help-- especially exercise riders and assistant trainers.
Dutrow, as I have mentioned before, has blacksmith Alex Leaf working for him almost exclusively (Leaf also works for Tony Dutrow and Thomas Bush). This is undoubtedly an expensive arrangement, but a tremendous advantage. No hoof, no horse.
I\'d like to congratulate the Kouray family, whose Phillip X won race 6 at Aqueduct today. PX was produced by the Kouray\'s mare Aristie, who has also produced Stellianos, Levendis, Thanasi and Christian X. If I\'m not mistaken all of these siblings have won races at NYRA tracks this year. Quite a feat, and it deserves mention.
Maybe this is when JB started using the projection method?
Richiebee,
You make some very fine points;but unless that smitty is dipping the nails into a majic elixir,wouldn\'t your synopsis be comparable to someone getting a $50 haircut every week and than going to pay a visit to his internist?
Five years ago the idea of illicit drugs was a conspiracy...today it is all but out in the open.
Just like T.G. who is leaning to raise the bar, can\'t we at least come to some agreement that when Jerry cocedes that some trainers just don\'t bonce off of continued fine efforts, that we accept this trend w/out needing to know the particulars?
As much as we would love to find out and trace it all the way back!!!!!!!
You sir, are either clueless or a bird of a feather. Frankel may be a great horsemen but he most certainly is getting \"a little help from his friends\".
explain to me , if it isnt about drugs, how these trainers can possibly be that much better than others? how, after 20 years, can you think there is so many differant ways to train a horse? you feed him,work him out and run him. no such thing, other than drugs, can move a horse up 5 lengths in a week.
ITS ALL ABOUT DRUGS......
On Wall Street, they are made to pay reparations when they are caught cheating. Some 1 billion is due to be paid out in an ipo scandal.
How much would the potion users owe under that scenario?