caught using mepivacaine? i think they got dutrow for this a few year\'s ago (farmer jake?)
....
dutrow got a $3g fine and 45 days.
DESCRIPTION
Mepivacaine hydrochloride is 2-Piperidinecarboxamide, N-(2,6-dimethylphenyl)-1-methyl-, monohydrochloride.
The molecular formula is C 15 H 22 N 2 O ยท HCl.
It is a white, crystalline odorless, powder, soluble in water, but very resistant to both acid and alkaline hydrolysis.
Mepivacaine hydrochloride is a local anesthetic available as sterile isotonic solutions (clear, colorless) in concentrations of 1%, 1.5% and 2% for injection via local infiltration, peripheral nerve block, and caudal and lumbar epidural blocks.
Mepivacaine hydrochloride is related chemically and pharmacologically to the amide-type local anesthetics. It contains an amide linkage between the aromatic nucleus and the amino group.
jerry,
any chance of seeing the #\'s for tales of glory? i think the pattern after the positive will be interesting. i have tried to support guys like pletcher who have never had a positive. news like this makes it very difficult.
I\'m obviously a big Pletcher fan. I\'m going to wait for some details. The DRF article said the drug is sometimes used when a horse is given stitches and it can stay in its system for a long time. I\'d like to see that TG sheet also though.
Michael D and class,
(1) Pletcher has had positives before. Here\'s a link to a court brief involving one of Pletcher\'s suspensions (in Fla.).
http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/dawson/cases/racing/donk.htm
(2) This was from a bulletin board thing I found:
\"In 2002 at Saratoga, as some of you may remember, three Todd Pletcher trained horses died in a week, all after running devastatingly impressive races. Left Bank stretched out to 1 1/8 miles in the Whitney, sat off a fast pace and blew away Street Cry, Lido Palace and Evening Attire. Warners, a promising but so far disapointing 3YO, won by 10 ( while dropping from 2-1 to even money as the field left the gate ) and a 2YO filly dueled through excruciating fractions in the Adirondack, only to draw away and win by 5 or more. All three of these horses were dead within days.
Coincidence?
Whether it was a coincidence or not, I wonder how the press and folks on this message board would have treated this tragic occurance if the trainer had been D. Wayne Lukas and not Todd Pletcher (yes, I know Pletcher was an assistant for Lukas, so maybe this is a bad example)
It infuriates me when certain trainers get a pass when their horses are injured or die, but others get put on the hot seat time and time again.\"
HP
http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/dawson/cases/racing/donk.htm
http://tarlton.law.utexas.edu/dawson/cases/racing/donk.htm
This is the link (I see it might not have come out in previous post).
HP
tarlton.law.utexas.edu/dawson/cases/racing/donk.htm
That should work..., just put http:// in front of it. Sorry for extra posts...
HP
HP,
Very interesting stuff.
I think Lukas takes more heat than most trainers partly because of his past success and partly because he has run a handful of VERY HIGH PROFILE horses well past the point where even casual fans understood that the horse was done and should be retired. He also has had at least one very high profile horse that was rumored to have problems before an important race that broke down in that race.
IMO, there\'s another high profile west coast trainer that breaks down a lot more horses with potential than Lukas ever did because of his aggressive super fast workout style. It\'s tough to link WOs with physical problems though. It\'s just an opinion (mine).
When you run a horse into the ground people notice.
Pletcher is a smooth operator and a good interview. He\'s not an abrasive guy. This is not even the first time he\'s been suspended in NEW YORK.
I\'m not the greatest handicapper in the world, but I have been looking at sheets for a long time, and sheet readers know what typical horse patterns look like, and what exceptional horses look like, etc. I don\'t know how else to put this: Pletcher\'s horses don\'t do what they\'re supposed to do. Frankel\'s horses don\'t do what they\'re supposed to do. I know this is ridiculously subjective, but they just don\'t LOOK right. There are others...
This is why I blew my top over Class\' whole \"lightly raced\" stock thing. Pletcher has been suspended, several times. There\'s plenty of evidence that he\'s dirty, over and above my subjective view of the sheets of his horses.
There are lots of trainers that haven\'t had positives and they might not win as much as Pletcher, but they may be more worthy of \"fan\" interest.
HP
HP Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
> This is why I blew my top over Class\' whole
> \"lightly raced\" stock thing. Pletcher has been
> suspended, several times. There\'s plenty of
> evidence that he\'s dirty, over and above my
> subjective view of the sheets of his horses.
>
> There are lots of trainers that haven\'t had
> positives and they might not win as much as
> Pletcher, but they may be more worthy of \"fan\"
> interest.
>
> HP
>
HP I agree with you entirely. Pletcher\'s horses shot right through the roof at the same time the other suspects began running lights out. Anecdote tells me he\'s cheating, I fully expected the tests to pick up something in the future, though I didn\'t know about this Saratoga issue until yesterday and didn\'t realize he\'d had other positive cases. The substance involved doesnt seem to be the jumper we all assume is out there, but it does ring a bell. Isn\'t it the same substance Dutrow is serving his suspension for? Or I\'m I all alzheimers fogged out again.
Also, I though Left Bank died after colicking and surgery and a longish illness. Am I mistaken about that too?
HP,
I hear where you are coming from.
If you leave the drug aspect of the discussion out of the equation just for the moment, there\'s still a lot to be said for getting high quality stock, developing it properly, and spotting it well. The latter two are clearly desireable skills in a trainer and the first one often comes from demonstrating those latter two skills because they produce lots of winners.
A handful of trainers have been demonstrating those spotting and development skills for as long as I\'ve been around the game.
Both Pletcher and Frankel are very conservative at spotting their horses (IMO Frankel is too conservative) and seem to have a very keen ability to move them up the class ladder at approximately the right pace. If they experiment and it doesn\'t produce good results, they adjust quickly. That\'s why they have such a high win percentage overall. IMO at least \"partly\" why they don\'t win as often at the Breeder\'s Cup is that those races are loaded with contenders relative to the typcial stakes race - which automatically translates into a lower win percentage - and they give up their \"spotting\" skills just by entering. They have to take on horses they do a great job of avoiding all year long when they go to the BC. THere may be other reasons :), but IMO speed figures alone are not proof because tons of horses run sub par races in those elite Grade 1 races because of the depth of quality, race development etc...
IMO, it\'s OK to be suspicious about what else is going on and still bet on their horses when they going off at overlaid odds in a situation where they usually have excellent results.
I am suspicious when a trainer moves a horse up by a real lot very quickly and took him from another highly competent horseman. I am suspicious if the horse is running new tops at the age of 6 etc....
I am less suspicios when a trainer improves a horse he took from a trainer with a terrible overall record or when he takes a horse that has long showed potential to a farm for two months before turning him around.
I don\'t disagree with any of you guys in general. I just think there has been an occasional jump to judgement.
Every time a horse runs really well it doesn\'t he must have been drugged and every time he misfires it doesn\'t mean it must have been the new drug screening. IMO, once you start playing horses with that mindset, you\'re gambling is going get really screwed up and you are going to start making all sorts of excuses for your own errors in information and/or understanding.
I haven\'t seen any jump to judgement and this stuff just confirms what I\'ve said. Spotting horses my ass. Pletcher\'s a cheater. He \"spots his horses carefully\" meaning he probably puts them in the places where he thinks he can most likely get away with cheating.
He\'s been caught before (in several states). Now he\'s busted again. He had them dying like flies at Saratoga (bad batch?). He wins a lot BECAUSE HE CHEATS. It\'s a fact! Please let\'s call a spade a spade without all the obfuscation. I don\'t care if I cash tickets or not. Yeesh.
As for his training skill: How can anyone judge his training skills? His success is based on cheating. You\'d have to see him train without cheating for awhile to have any opinion on his abilities. For all we know without the juice he\'s like Gaylord Perry without the spitter.
HP
I would be very interested to hear what SJU5 has to say about the drug in question, since he knows more about this stuff than the rest of us put together. Off the top of my head I doubt it\'s the magic bullet-- discussions I have had with people in the industry indicate we may be closing in on that, and that it is far more dangerous because it is simple, effective, and legal, at the moment. The problem with using the kind of stuff Pletcher had a positive with is that there is a test for it-- hence the positive.
I do remember when those Pletcher horses died, although I thought it was just two of them. Yes, it was just when the move-up stuff started getting extreme, and his horses were moving up a lot.
HP,
Drugs or no drugs, the lightly raced high quality stock he gets slowly moves up the ladder while running progressively faster over time. That\'s the clear cut profile of a good horseman and always has been. The pure drug guys tend to move their horses up dramatically and quickly.
Spotting horses is a skill even if you are using super duper high test. You still have to accurately assess how much ability your horse has relative to the competiton. You have to know what distance/surface etc... he prefers and put him against horses he can actually beat at that time. You have to map out a schedule that makes sense. If he\'s not doing well, you have to back off. If an experiment fails you have to change gears etc.... You have to avoid horses that can beat you.
Let\'s assume he is using something illegal 100% of the time. Now let\'s say he stops and all of his new horses start running 5 lengths slower. IMO, he would still win a ton of races because he\'d run them where they belong - it would just be at a lower level than they run now. He might not win as many Graded Stakes etc... but he\'d be winning listed stakes at second string tracks, allowance races, etc... instead because he knows what he\'s doing and knows how to spot horses.
On the flip side take a look at Nick Zito\'s record. Here\'s another guy that gets great stock. IMHO he has less of a clue about how much ability his horses have than the average fan that can read the DRF a little. His horses are often spotted horribly. Their performances are up and down all over the place. Some people are suspicious of his activities too. They may be right, but his lowly 10%-11% win percentage is the result of his lack of skill. If he\'s using drugs it doesn\'t help him win a lot because he is lacking skills that guys like Pletcher and Frankel have.
IMO you have to seperate the skill and the illegal activity. You can be a cheat and still be highly skilled and vice versa.
IMO...forget about it. You\'re right, he\'d win a lot anyway. I\'ve never heard of say, on the flip side...Nick Zito getting a positive, but I guess you won\'t that stand in the way of your theories. Zito wins less because he doesn\'t know how to spot his horses and Pletcher wins more, not because he cheats, but because he spots his horses better. Have it your way. HP
TGJB,
\"it is simple, effective, and legal, at the moment.\"
If that\'s the case then can you really blame those that have access to it for using it other than if it is unsafe for the horses?
Aren\'t steroids (and the like) legal and wouldn\'t something like that explain how a horse that\'s out for 2 months or so could come back so much better - like one particular trainer has a habit of doing.
If it is legal, then I think the problem is within the industry itself. In a game like this, I think it\'s up to the industry to set the rules and not just expect people to not use things like that. There are always people that will venture into legal grey areas looking for an edge when there\'s big money on the line.
HP,
I didn\'t mean to be combative if that\'s the way it came off. I\'m just saying that IMO, it isn\'t all drugs.
Class,
No problem.
But you must know you have no way of knowing how much of it is drugs. And that\'s not my opinion, it\'s a fact.
HP
Its not really hard for Pletcher to spot his horses. He has very few claimers in his barn and if he does, they are for longstanding clients. Ususally, his firsters win first or second out. If they are good, they go into stakes and if they are average, they go through their allowance conditions. Doesn\'t seem he needs to be an expert to spot horses.
Milkshakes were legal until they weren\'t, and they don\'t harm the horse. Would you really want to have a situation where you would never know who was using them and who wasn\'t, and whether a horse was being run \"hot\" or \"cold\" last time, and today? It would be kind of like... what we have now. And it makes this an inside information game-- yes, we can make deductions, but we are betting against some people who KNOW.
TGJB,
No I definitely don\'t want milkshakes, steroids, or anything else like that even if they are legal. I was just commenting on the general tendency of people to seek out those types of edges when a lot of money is on the line. So it\'s up to the industry to set the standards a lot higher. If you leave it up to the participants, they will simply say I didn\'t break any laws or rules and they would be right.
The standards are apparently high enough to catch Todd Pletcher several times in several jurisdictions, and it doesn\'t seem to have a decisive impact on the public impression of the guy as some kind of great horseman. I find this incredible. Hopefully this time around it will be different, and reporters will be asking him about his repeated cheating and drugging of horses instead of kissing his ass about how great he is. I doubt it.
Previous suspensions and positives notwithstanding, Teflon Todd Pletcher was treated like a wizard during Triple Crown season, and the issue of his success and rumored (and confirmed by suspension!) drug use was nowhere to be found in the mainstream racing press (and they talked to him plenty). I think the toughest roasting Pletcher has gotten has been on this board! My bet is that this whole thing will blow over and Pletcher will be right on track for another big season at Saratoga.
Same old, same old.
HP
Minfurna\'s dead on..
Take the PP\'s of Flower Alley, Bandini and Coin Silver and look at them together.. Pletcher\'s pattern is obvious, at least with these types.. All three debuted flat.. Ran well out of contention and received low figs. Then, they all jumped up to 80-ish Beyers and equivilent TG\'s in their 2nd starts. (Two of them broke their MDN in that 2nd start and one of them needed a third start as I recall). Anyway.. The pattern of development was nearly identical with all three.
Of course milkshakes \"don\'t harm the horse\".
Milkshakes can only kill them.
For reference, see the two following excellent newspaper articles:
1. San Diego Union-Tribune, September 15, 2004, A Rising Problem for Horse
Racing, by Brent Schrotenboer, which quotes Richard Sams and George Maylin, both
well known veterinarians
2. The Sar Ledger, July 29, 2001, Trouble at the Track, by Brad Parks.
You can easily locate these articles by doing a Google serach using the
words, \"milkshake\" and \"horse\" and \"die\".
OK Jerry...just got in...lot\'s of talk regading TP eh?
1st comment: Why does it take 11 months for the NYS Racing Commision to discuss the positive results of a test with TP? The drug test results are confirmed by Cornell in 48-72 hours by GC/MS confirmation. Jockey\'s are reviewed and meet with NYS stewards within 48 hours for their transgressions and suspended quickly. Trainers can wait 10-11 months??? Sounds very fishy with NYS Racing Board. I can\'t think of any possible legitimate reasons why the delay in drug test result notifications by the stewards.
Here\'s more info regarding the time the drug in question is retained in the kidneys before it\'s excreted (and this is for kidneys that are NOT on lasix which quicken the urine flow):
\" Mepivacaine, because of its amide structure, is not detoxified by the circulating plasma esterases. Mepivacaine is rapidly metabolized. The liver is the principal site of metabolism, with over 50 per cent of the administered dose being excreted into the bile as metabolites. Most of the metabolized mepivacaine is probably resorbed in the intestine and then excreted into the urine, since only a small percentage is found in the feces. The principal route of excretion is via the kidneys. Most of the anaesthetic and its metabolites are eliminated within 30 hours.
A percentage of up to 16 per cent of the dose administered is excreted unchanged in the urine.\"
So this talk that the drug stays in system LONGER than expected is questionable at best. IMO, the horse raced within that 30 hour window after getting this injection if enough of the drug showed in a post race drug test!
I hope you got my other email regarding supplements!
MInfurna Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Its not really hard for Pletcher to spot his
> horses. He has very few claimers in his barn and
> if he does, they are for longstanding clients.
> Ususally, his firsters win first or second out. If
> they are good, they go into stakes and if they are
> average, they go through their allowance
> conditions. Doesn\'t seem he needs to be an expert
> to spot horses.
Training has always been an experience and patience game, a grey hair\'s game. Take Afleet Alex\'s trainer for instance. Ritchey is about 55 years old and has been at it for about 30 years. Its takes that kind of experience to understand that horses are individuals that many times will respond differently to different routines. The whole thing is nonverbal of course and it requires great powers of observation and empathy. Within all of this comes Todd Pletcher who cut his teeth on the routine of the then huge Lukas operation. If there was ever a successful trainer that followed a script it was Wayne Lukas. Bring in the large freshman class, put them all through the same drills and those that don\'t come down sick or injured play on game day. Pletcher obviously learned Luka\'s organizational abilitites but somehow in the period of three to four years he completely eclipsed his mentor on the track. Pletcher is a relatively young man, so where did all this training acumen suddenly come from? How was Lukas so quickly marginalized? Add to the equation the fact that at the same time a real grey hair (Bobby Frankel) also began training like he had never trained before. One young, one long in the tooth, but both suddenly having in common, the very top of the earnings list. Anything else in common?
Personally, I\'m sick of hearing about quality stock and placement of animals in this matter. Todd Pletcher is still wet behind the ears in this game and cheating shouldn\'t make it so easy to marginalize trainers that are true horsemen.
Enough already.
You all sound like you are ready to make the final sacrifice. Here\'s how the form letter goes:
\"Dear [insert name of racing organization]:
My name is [insert your name] and I wager approximately [insert dollar figure]at your facilities each year. In my opinion, the game has become unplayable due to detectable and undetectable performance enhancing drugs, and the failure of your organization to police this problem.
Please be advised that I intend to place no further wagers at your facility until the problem of illegal performance enhancing drugs is eradicated.
Signed
[ ]\"
About 15 months ago, a fellow I know stopped betting on races which Richard Dutrow had an entry in. It was more a matter of surrender than protest. His letter might read something like this:
\"Dear [racing organization]:
My name is [ ] and I wager approximately [$ ] at your facilities each year. In my opinion, the following trainers are utilizing performance enhancing drugs: [name usual suspects]. Since there is insufficient disclosure of the use of these (sometimes illegal) performance enhancing drugs, I will not be placing wagers in any races in which [name usual suspects] have horses entered.
Signed
[ ]\"
Feel free to use one or both of these letters without attribution. With enough letters with large enough $ amounts, some movement may be seen one day.
Me, I\'m a recreational, not professional horseplayer. My father was a compulsive gambler (he preferred cards and baseball) and my maternal grandfather (dam sire)was a bookmaker in Brooklyn and Miami, so its pretty unlikely I\'ll be sending either of those letters any time soon. Something about breeding. Gotta get to work on Saturday\'s late P4 at Belmont.
hearing later in the year??? any thoughts out there?? i have supported pletcher because i thought he had never had a positive before. now it looks like he is a repeat offenfer. two positives?? let\'s get the hearing underway. if guilty, todd needs to be banned for this year\'s saratoga meet.
Right on! Ban him. He\'s been dirty for years. What takes so long to do a hearing? Teflon Todd keeps going strong. On the other hand, will Todd have the guts to do his thing at Saratoga with everybody watching him? Will there be betting opportunities? Or will anybody really be watching him? Will the racing community just go back into its collective coma with this guy? Tough call. HP
In fact, I can\'t understand why repeatedly adminstering illegal drugs to horses isn\'t \"animal abuse\" and punishable by the real authorities (i.e., jail). There are laws against this kind of thing, and as long as the biggest thing these guys have to worry about is a suspension it\'s going to continue.
Lock up a few of these well-heeled trainers! Don\'t the police read the newspapers? I really don\'t get it. They should take the evidence from the racing boards or testing authorities or whatever and bring it straight to court.
Reminds me of Wall St. where they \"don\'t admit to any wrongdoing\", steal $100 million, and pay a $2 million fine. Sounds like a good deal to me! HP
Let me ask everyone this. I know alot of people doesnt care for Bobby Frankel, talking like he\'s one of the user\'s, but has he ever been brought up on any charges??
Same positive as Dutrow, & presumably the same approach when & if the suspension actually occurs: transfer the horses to an \"assistant\" who ends up with an even better win pct. In other words, no real penalty other than a paltry $3k fine, & tough luck for those who bet the horses which finished behind Tales of Glory.
P.S. bit: Enjoyed your pithy comment, esp the way it fit the title of the thread.
They don\'t need the animal abuse people. Tampering with a pari-mutuel event (and possibly any sporting event, Mall might know) is a crime, I think Federal. That\'s why freezing blood is such a deterrent-- if you develop a test later and can go back and look at samples, someone could be in line for 20-30 convictions for a performance enhancer.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> They don\'t need the animal abuse people. Tampering
> with a pari-mutuel event (and possibly any
> sporting event, Mall might know) is a crime, I
> think Federal. That\'s why freezing blood is such a
> deterrent-- if you develop a test later and can go
> back and look at samples, someone could be in line
> for 20-30 convictions for a performance enhancer.
I had not heard anyone put it in context like that. So technically dutrow and peltcher could face tampering charges if a US Attorney got gung ho about the situation? I think the tough part is proving intent. These trainers always have a excuse which wouldnt be that far fetched to a 12 person jury who knows nothing about the sport.
Don\'t you think it would be harder to make the tampering case than the animal abuse case? And it\'s not the \"animal abuse\" people who would bring the case, it\'s simply a prosecutor who has to take an interest... HP
If you give a performance enhancing drug to a horse that can\'t be in his system naturally, you are by definition tampering with the event, since there is betting on it, and the public doesn\'t know what\'s going on.
Why don\'t they just do what they do to the mob guys and bring every charge they can think of?
I am just mystified as to why there is NOTHING done on ANY legal level (okay, tampering sounds good!) over and above what goes on with the miscellaneous racing boards and state agencies that administer this stuff. There are clearly laws being broken! Many of them. People (and horses) are being injured and suffering damages. It just seems to be an area that they are mysteriously unwilling to prosecute.
HP
To take New York as an example, only certain substances can get a trainer in trouble. Section 180.51 of the N.Y. Penal Law is probably what you have in mind:
\"S 180.51 Tampering with a sports contest in the first degree.
A person is guilty of tampering with a sports contest in the first degree when, with intent to influence the outcome of a pari-mutuel horse race:
1. He affects any equine animal involved in the conduct or operation of a pari-mutuel horse race by administering to the animal in any manner whatsoever any controlled substance listed in section thirty-three hundred six of the public health law . . .\"
I couldn\'t determine in the quick check I did whether mepivacaine is a controlled substance or not. And, of course, one of the larger questions is how prosecutors could make progress when a lot of what is being adminstered remains unknown to the regulators.
half life of mepivacaine is 1.6 hours. that means every 1.6 hours half of the amount get removed from the system. the half-life is somewhat variable. if you expect 1.6 hours and it ends up 3, you can end up with more in the system than you expect at some point after the injection.
from my experience, this is used as a joint block. it works extremely well. the problem is that pain is the bodys way of saying something is wrong. thus, you might only get one race before a career ending injury.
they did what with pete rose?
Just a few questions:
1.) Who was the Vet in the Dutrow and Pletcher positives? There was a lot Allday name association with those two guys around here earlier this spring. Or is Allday just the Grade One guy?
2.) Speaking of Grade One\'s why does it always seem that the ones getting \"juiced\" are cheaper horses? Are we all supposed to be so stupid that we should believe the Stakes horses aren\'t getting the same \"stuff\"?
3.) Now that we have Frankie Brothers about to serve a suspension, Pletcher on deck and Juan Serey returning to the game from a three year ban. When these three things occur is the integrity of the game getting worse or better?
4.) If Pletcher is forced to step aside for a month or two and cell phone the orders in, will he really be doing anything any different than what Bob Baffert has done his entire career.
lol. Yeah but they aren\'t good sheet readers, so you still have a HUGE edge.
ahem.
TGJB Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Milkshakes were legal until they weren\'t, and they
> don\'t harm the horse. Would you really want to
> have a situation where you would never know who
> was using them and who wasn\'t, and whether a horse
> was being run \"hot\" or \"cold\" last time, and
> today? It would be kind of like... what we have
> now. And it makes this an inside information
> game-- yes, we can make deductions, but we are
> betting against some people who KNOW.
IMO, huge sums have been made by gamblers with access to the information on who is touched, and who isn\'t.
They likely pay for it, in cash, and use all kinds of cover stories for thier success.
This , coupled with rebates, have siphoned a large portion of the \'free float\' of dumb money into thier pockets, and out of the pockets of ordinary, even if talented players.
Of course, this is only a theory , because if I knew it for a fact I\'d buy the same information and use it.
Silver Charm Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Just a few questions:
>
> 1.) Who was the Vet in the Dutrow and Pletcher
> positives? There was a lot Allday name association
> with those two guys around here earlier this
> spring. Or is Allday just the Grade One guy?
My limited knowledge of Vet work is that they are employed on a needs basis. With Allday however, I would not be surprised if he\'s on a retainer or base salary for his respective trainers.
>
> 2.) Speaking of Grade One\'s why does it always
> seem that the ones getting \"juiced\" are cheaper
> horses? Are we all supposed to be so stupid that
> we should believe the Stakes horses aren\'t getting
> the same \"stuff\"?
Sometimes, I dont think they bother with the cheaper horses. Treatments aren\'t cheap. The real money for trainers and \"vets on a commission\" obviously is in the Grade I\'s and thats why Frankel and Pletcher have had considerable success there recently.
> 3.) Now that we have Frankie Brothers about to
> serve a suspension, Pletcher on deck and Juan
> Serey returning to the game from a three year ban.
> When these three things occur is the integrity of
> the game getting worse or better?
If you\'re questioning supertesting, tend to agree. Don\'t think its accomplished a whole lot, but will reserve final judgement until this mepivicane thing shakes out.
>
> 4.) If Pletcher is forced to step aside for a
> month or two and cell phone the orders in, will he
> really be doing anything any different than what
> Bob Baffert has done his entire career.
Offlee Wild, Saint Liam, sure there\'s others. Does anyone really doubt that a piece of those purses got back to Dutrow? Baffert may not be at the barn as much as some of the old time trainers, but he\'s still got the knack. Note Roman Ruler. Brings them back running.
The problem with inside information concerns only those in the dark.
Personaly Iv\'e been experiencing an eclipse for the last 2 years.
Try playing Colonial Downs where things are pretty clean and experience the oddities and heartbreak that went thru you when you first got hooked on this game. When I leave my computer after losing,Idon\'t feel cheated and can\'t wait to play same track tomorrow and prove my handicapping prowess is in tact and the previous encounter was a fluke!
PARTYpokerON!
DavidRX,
I\'ve also been following Colonial this year and plan to enter DRF qualifying Hadicapping contest they have. The prices they have are incredible this year due to lower than NY/CA/KY pool sizes and 12- 14 horse fields has yeilded incredible returns.In Win Exacta and Tri\'s Super sometimes come up light due to not enough $ in the pool. Pic 3 and 4 have been nice as well.
Check the results for this past Tuesday. With the TGsheets it was very possible to include the $38 winner in the 4th and with a little imagination the $170+ winner of the 5th (2x turf strecthing out off 9 days rest with nice improvement on turf fig ie 21 vs field low of 16)
Keep it quiet don\'t let the rest know whats going on there.
NC Tony
I\'ve heard nothing but good things about the Col contest, & following their races on a regular basis should give you an advantage, since the contest races are limited to those at Col. That & relatively low prize money usually limits the size of the field, another advantage.
There is one thing I would suggest if there\'s anyway you can manage it, namely convince a trusted friend or two to tag along so you can circumvent the one entry limit. You chances tend to increase exponentially with extra entries, & you avoid making the wrong choice between live 30-1 & a 16-1 shots, as I did in the 1st contest race at CD today. Of course, it wouldn\'t have mattered if Probable Payoff gets up in the 8th, in which case I win the contest & cash a pk4 worth many times what the winner of the contest got. You might even remember PP\'s jock from Kee, none other than Water Gap\'s regular pilot, Shelley Moran. THAT WOMAN OWES ME MONEY!!!!
I am looking at Madcap Escapades PP\'s over lunch and noticed that Trainer Frankie Brothers has sent out 49 starters this year and had one drug positive that we know of.
Using a different form of Trainers Stats can I assume that at least 2% of his starters are under the influence of illegal drugs. Is there anyway Mandown and DRF can incorporate this kind of data into the quality Trainers Stats info they both supply?
Thanks
Hard to know how to respond to this, since I don\'t know what other stats you are talking about.
Knowing that Mandown does your data I was referring to your Trainers Stats and the ones DRF uses.
Clearly this was a joke but things are getting to the point where there may a whole new set of categories.
First Time Milkshake.
Second Time Milkshake.
First race after Positive.
In the money with Positives.
In the money without Positives.
I have seen more than a few Tote Boards over the years which made me wonder who was in the loop.
I just got back from Hilton Head and just got a chance to read much of this thread (you all probably liked it better that way:) .
How do you define illegal performance enhancer vs. legal performance enhancer unless something is listed as one or the other?
For example, what we generally refer to as good nutrition is a performance enhancer we approve of.
We don\'t disqualify boxers that just switched to a trainer that gets them to eat the perfect amount of protein supplements to increase strength over the long haul and mega doses of carbs just prior to fight night to get peak stamina even though we didn\'t expect the improved performance.
How do you do keep the lists of approved/unapproved things current when science is constantly coming up with new ways of improving performance?
Suppose someone is using various herbs, vitamins, minerals, food supplements etc... that improve health, reduce pain and inflamation, treat various health conditions etc... That\'s not completely different from using other naturally occurring compounds that are also extracted from plants, animals etc... and have a stronger effect. The main difference is that over time people form different opinions about what is OK and what is not OK. However, there are always some people that are ahead of the general information curve about what works.
IMO, what is needed is a list of \"approved\" medications, supplements, vet procedures etc.. and just make everything else illegal as the default. Then freeze blood and urine samples.
If some nutitionist, chemist, or vet out there comes up with something new that works, it should simply go through an industry/state review process to determine its merits.
IMO, the way it is now there\'s loads of grey in all this. There are almost certainly a few trainers/vets that are using naturally ocurring supplements or new medical procedures etc.. that improve performance that are NOT listed as illegal. I can\'t see how you seperate those from all the other things used to improve performance unless you list the approved ones and call everything else illegal.
We all know we don\'t want this going on without our knowledge, but IMO we need specifics.
Class,
How do you define illegal performance enhancer vs. legal performance enhancer? Pletcher is using the illegal ones, that\'s how.
Nobody else has a problem understanding this. The rules are plenty specific and Pletcher breaks them. Does Pletcher have to meet you and jam a needle in your ass to get you to understand? Apparently so. In this particular instance there is no \"grey area.\" There\'s even a legal brief attached regarding an earlier incident. Couldn\'t be more specific. There\'s no mystery about legal vs. illegal. And even if they use a new thing that isn\'t on the banned list everyone still knows what\'s going on and it\'s not like they get an exemption for doing it. It\'s still a positive. You don\'t know what you\'re talking about. Give it up. Please.
HP
HP,
\"How do you define illegal performance enhancer vs. legal performance enhancer? Pletcher is using the illegal ones, that\'s how. \"
I\'m not talking about isolated positives in a multi-state operation with dozens of horses that are allowed to be treated with banned substances between races. Those are the obvious cases that need to be investigated to see what and why it happened. Fines and punishments are usually handed out for these when appropriate.
I also wasn\'t being specific to Pletcher in this case.
I am talking about the kinds of accusations that are leveled against some trainers because almost their entire barn is running so well - though obviously Pletcher falls into that category.
You obviously believe that TP is using all sorts of performance enhancers.
Do you have a list of everything he is using?
Are you sure they are all on the list of banned substances?
I think perhaps many trainers are using things that haven\'t even been identified yet let alone put on a list of banned substances! That\'s why the default has to be everything is illegal except X, Y, Z..... There will always be some people that are a little sharper and have greater resources than others. They will get ahead of the general learning curve when it comes to nutrition, medications, vet procedures etc.... Until you say it is illegal, it is legal.
\"I am talking about the kinds of accusations that are leveled against some trainers because almost their entire barn is running so well - though obviously Pletcher falls into that category.\"
Who are you talking about? Be specific or please stop.
\"You obviously believe that TP is using all sorts of performance enhancers.\"
You are dense beyond belief. I don\'t BELIEVE he is using all sorts of performance enhancers. HE IS USING THEM, and some of them are ILLEGAL. He\'s been caught REPEATEDLY. You are DENSE! If Pletcher jabbed a needle in your ass you STILL wouldn\'t believe it. Wow. Can you read? It\'s just unreal.
\"Do you have a list of everything he is using?\"
No.
\"Are you sure they are all on the list of banned substances?\"
No.
\"I think perhaps many trainers are using things that haven\'t even been identified yet let alone put on a list of banned substances! That\'s why the default has to be everything is illegal except X, Y, Z..... There will always be some people that are a little sharper and have greater resources than others. They will get ahead of the general learning curve when it comes to nutrition, medications, vet procedures etc.... Until you say it is illegal, it is legal.\"
Why are you making this point and what does it have to do with what\'s on this thread? Until you say it is illegal, it is legal. Who does this apply to? You just hijack the thread and start blabbering nonsense. And then you cry that you get grief for posting this crap.
From now on, I\'m just going to skip your name on the page, so unless you change your name from \"classhandicapper\" you won\'t have to worry about any more responses from this corner.
Keep cashing with your great insights on lightly raced high quality stock.
HP
classhandicapper Wrote:
liked it better that way .
>
> How do you define illegal performance enhancer vs.
> legal performance enhancer unless something is
> listed as one or the other?
This is really quite easy. ANY substance that is administered to a horse to enhance its performance is illegal. Its really that simple. The substance may or may not be on the prohibited/allowed list yet, but it will be. Obviously, this does not include Beer or eggs or whatever nutritional insights a trainer thinks he has. Flax instead of hay for instance. If anyone thinks that Todd Pletcher has stumbled onto the horse dinner panacea when other trainers are blissfully ignorant, more power to them. If he has stumbled onto it however he employs the same vet whose other well known client/trainers are also onto the \"Power Dinner\".
HP,
Do you have some personal problem that doesn\'t allow you discuss things in a mature way?
In case you were unaware of it, there are legal medications for people that get hostile for no apparent reason. No post discussion testing is required.
I was responding to TGJB\'s post about performance enhancing drugs and tampering with a sporting event. Here's what he said.
"If you give a performance enhancing drug to a horse that can\'t be in his system naturally, you are by definition tampering with the event, since there is betting on it, and the public doesn\'t know what\'s going on. "
My obvious point has been that it is not always clear what a trainer or vet is giving or doing to their horses in order to get them to perform better. There are many things that could fall into grey areas that enhance performance.
Read this carefully!
I am saying that we need an "APPROVED" list for all known drugs, all nutritional supplements, all other compounds and all medical procedures. If you have a complete approved list, everything that is not on that list is automatically illegal. THen there are no grey areas about what can or cannot be used or done with horses.
We all know about the things that are already illegal. It's what we don't know that we need to have stiffer controls over.
If you weren't such a %$#%## all the time, you might have noticed that I was suggesting a way to enhance our ability to catch the cheaters. As long as there are grey areas and large amounts of money at stake, there will be people looking for any edge they can get away with. The limits must defined clearly.