Thought Ghostdodger was shortening up pretty good late. He figured to first back off a long layoff in a tough race, but now Frankel says hes tired and needs his naps. Maybe he does, but anyone beginning to suspect that Losing Weight and Fatigue Naps are a subtle way of working the Racing Secretary over imposts? \"My horse was sick, he lost weight, he\'s very tired and needs his naps.\" Comeon Crybobby, He\'s carrying 130 next time no matter how much you bellyache.
\"As for Ghostzapper, Monday\'s 6 1/4-length victory was not as effortless as it appeared. Unquote: (Who Says?). Quote: Ghostzapper, making his first start in seven months, ran a mile in 1:33.29 and earned a Beyer Speed Figure of 122.
\"He\'s just a little tired,\" Frankel said Tuesday. \"He laid down all morning. He\'s fine. He always takes his naps.\"
On Tuesday, Frankel was not as definitive about the Suburban being Ghostzapper\'s next start as he was on Monday. (The Suburban is 10 marks and I believe a handicap. Bobby, Spectacular Bid set about 7 track records. Twice he set track records carrying over 130 pounds. If you want Ghostdodger mentioned in the same breath with great horses you have to run like a great horse runs.)
\"We\'ll play it by ear,\" Frankel said.
Other races Frankel has in mind for Ghostzapper this year are the Whitney Handicap at Saratoga on Aug. 6, the Woodward at Belmont on Sept. 10, and the Breeders\' Cup Classic at Belmont on Oct. 29.\"
http://www.drf.com/news/article/65492.html
Post Edited (06-01-05 09:43)
I don\'t post much on here because I usually don\'t have much to add. I enjoy reading most of your posts. CTC however, your posts are getting old and boring very fast. Knock it off with this ghostsprinter, ghostdodger nonsense. What has the horse done wrong in the past 2 years?
Did you want Frankel to ask the racing sec for more weight in the Met?
Why are you so bitter?
You keep saying Frankel is a cry baby but I only hear you crying about GZ.
Just my two cents and I refuse to clutter this board up nonsense, with this one exception.
CTC,
\"He\'s carrying 130 next time no matter how much you bellyache.\"
I doubt it.
Racing Secretaries rarely add more than 2-3 pounds at a time. IMO, that\'s the primary reason he started him so low at 123. If he runs in another 2 handicaps he\'ll be up near 130 at the end of the campaign instead of starting him at 128 and getting him beat with 135 later in the year.
You can slice it anyway you wish, at 123lbs GZ got away with murder in view of his overall record.Racing secretaries across the country have \"sold out\" to the connections of the best horses just to get them to race at their track.
With so many tracks running and so many \"graded\" stakes, which choice do the racing secretaries have? I agree 123 was a joke, but put yourself in the shoes of the racing secretary. I wouldn\'t want to explain to my boss that Ghostzapper passed on my race and is running at Monmouth instead because I gave him too much weight. Tough job.
like it or not, the BC classic and dubai world cup have effectively ended serious handicap racing. why tote the weight in a $750g or $1 mio race when you know you will be on par with the rest for $5 mio or $6 mio? frankel and stronach don\'t care. they are sheet guys. put more weight on GZ, he will run a bit slower, get the same #, and still be the fastest horse in history.
Beyerguy wrote
\"With so many tracks running and so many \"graded\" stakes, which choice do the racing secretaries have? I agree 123 was a joke, but put yourself in the shoes of the racing secretary. I wouldn\'t want to explain to my boss that Ghostzapper passed on my race and is running at Monmouth instead because I gave him too much weight. Tough job\"
Beyer,
I agree it\'s a tough job today.What was John Nerud thinking when they put 139lbs on the incomparable Dr Fager in his last start in the Vosburg Handicap.He only went 120.1( a fifth off the World record for 7f)
JB,
I\'m still waiting for you to post the name of the horse who is two seconds faster (with 139lbs) than Fager from 6f to 8f from 1968 until now.Third request.
Holy55 wrote:
> ghostdodger nonsense. What has the horse
> done wrong in the past 2 years?
>
> Did you want Frankel to ask the racing sec for more weight in
> the Met?
>
> You keep saying Frankel is a cry baby but I only hear you
> crying about GZ.
>
> Just my two cents and I refuse to clutter this board up
> nonsense, with this one exception.
I\'d just like to see Ghostdodger catch a fully competent field, all ready to run on race day is all or in the alternative carry appropriate weight against overmatched horses that have won little of note. When Ghostweighted doesn\'t have to face horses like Medallist, Forest Danger, Pleasantly Perfect, Birdstone and others its easier to win. Gets easy on negotiated pace and pace meltdown too.
No taking anything away from the Met Mile score. It was impressive and fast, but if Ghostnapper was right, against those, it figured to be.
The weight will be an issue next time. If the Racing Secretary wants to fill the race and make it competitive he\'ll assign 130. If he wants to hand Ghostoscars the gold trophy he\'ll put 125 on him. (I\'m betting on 130 and I think Frankel already knows it and thats whey the song and dance has begun. Its very unseemly.) The significant competition looks to be Roses in May and the horse that essentially is Ghostactors figure equal Saint Liam, but theres others that can be very competitive in receipt of 13 pounds.
Don\'t count on seeing Ghostscratcher in the Suburban or Whitney. The former is a 10 mark handicap and the latter a handicap. He\'ll run in the weight for age Woodward and the Breeders Cup and that will probably be the extent of the 5 year old campaign, with a possible Canadian Turf start so Frankel can complete the illusion that this horse is remotely in Secretariat\'s horsehoes. The racing world will have to evaluate Ghostgreatness by what he didn\'t do.
Ghost is a very fitting name for this animal.
Post Edited (06-01-05 11:50)
Jerry,
At we at all close to your limit of idiotic posts about \"Ghostdodging, ghosthiding, ghostscratcher,etc.etc.\".
Some of us were REALLY hoping that the board police comment last week would stop this kind of stuff...........
Knock it off already.
The horse has crushed the competition every time he\'s been asked. What more do you want? Would the result of the MET been any different if he was carrying 135? Hardly.
I\'m certain I speak for many: You and classhandicapper consistently fill this board with waaaaaay too much bullshot.
Jimbo66, I was thinking the same thing. The Klown has served suspensions in the past, time for a freshening? LOL
Sadly he\'s not funny anymore...
I admit it gets a little tiresome to read the same thing over and over, but CTC makes a good point.
Great horses of the past carried weight. If you want to compare GZ to those horses, lets see him compete while conceding weight. Packing the weight may also get other horses into the starting gate. GZ is obviously a very talented horse, but is watching him stomp overmatched fields at ridiculous imposts not to mention his connections negotiating pace tactics with others really showcasing how great everyone thinks he is?? As a racing fan, don\'t you feel just a little cheated that we can\'t see how great he can be?
Pack the weight, run against bigger and better fields and show us how good he really is. I have nothing but respect for this horse, and certainly GZ isn\'t the only horse who has had his campaign cherrypicked by his connections. But when you have a horse as special as this one appears, racing fans deserve better. How many races did Azeri duck during her brilliant career?
P-Dub,
YOUR point is worth discussing, but I think you are wrong. Frankel didn\'t pick the weight assignment. His campaign was delayed this year because they drilled a hole in the horse\'s head. He came back in the Met Mile. The last race of the previous campaign was the Breeders Cup Classic. Last time I checked, those were two of the most prestigious races around. To say he is \"ducking anybody\" is ridiculous.
Clown\'s point is stupid nonsense posted to get a reaction from people on this board, so he can be the center of attention once again. Re-read his idiotic posts, where he denigrates not just Ghostzapper, but also his competition, horses like Pleasantly Perfect, Birdstone, Roses in May, etc.etc. PP was a very very good horse, especially at 1 1/4. FD runs very fast numbers in sprints, although he obviously didn\'t fire on Monday. Roses in May won the Dubai World Cup, Saint Liam is a very fast horse.
Ghost\'s record.
He\'s 9 for 11 and should be 10 for 11. He lost the King\'s Bishop on a very biased race track despite an amazing close. His other loss is also probably excusable because he was laid off afterwards. He probably had a problem.
He has won a Grade 1 sprint, mile, and classic distance race.
He has won on fast and sloppy tracks.
He can rate or wire a field depending on the pace scenario.
The BC Classic field of 2004 is widely regarded as one of the best Classic fields ever assembled. The 3rd place finisher was a very high quality BC winning horse and the 2nd place finisher has already won the Dubai Cup since then.
His speed figures are universally regarded as being exceptional by everyone that makes figures.
His margins of victory and the manner in which he accomplishes them are both often very impressive.
That\'s quite a resume even if it\'s not up to the same standards of Spectacular Bid, Dr Fager, Secretariat, Seattle Slew, Affirmed, etc...
There are 3 things he hasn\'t done that some of the greatest of all time have done.
1. The only truly tough field on a \"quality/class basis\" he has beaten was the BC Classic field. Most of the truly great ones proved themselves against elite fields like that on many occasions under various conditions. However, give him his due. Everyone has so many opportunities to race for big money, horses duck each other these days. The Grade 1 races of today are watered down versions of the Grade 1 races of the past except for the BC Classic, Triple Crown, and a few other races here or there. That\'s not all his fault.
2. Carry high weight against top competition and still beat them.
3. Win on the turf.
Based on the preliminary schedule that has been outlined, he may get the opportunity to do all 3 before the year is out. The final judgement will be made then, but it\'s pretty hard to not like what we\'ve seen so far.
Given his record at Belmont, GZ would be favored in either the BC Sprint or BC Classic this October. When he runs at Bel, his hooves seem to be barely grazing the track surface.
Imagine how popular this horse would be among serious racing fans if he weren\'t owned by the controversial Stronach and trained by the much maligned Frankel.
Golf note for TGJB-- ever play at Lido Beach? Played last week, drowned many Titleists. Easily the toughest municipal course I\'ve ever played.
Let me ask you this, I keep saying this. How much would he had won by if he was at 133 pounds the other day?? If he wins by a small amount then you might say something about the weight, but when he wins by 6 1/4, how much weight could have he carried and then it would have been a close race?? People are really reaching now. CTC as far as the comp. he faces, if their more than ready to step up and face him, bring them on.
What I\'d like is an individual gag/block or silence feature on this board. That was I could Ghost out guys that can\'t save their lives following the ponies.
If he\'d carried 135 it might have been pretty dang close. The rule of thumb is one length per one turn for every five pounds, but the pace of the Met under a 135 impost probably has Silver Wagon right there with him. (That would have been a 21 lb pull) But that race he certainly should have carried 127. Theres just no doubt about it. He still wins by 4 or so carrying that weight. Thats not the issue though. Medallist and Forest Danger didn\'t show up, though you had to figure FD was questionable. Unfortunately Ghostbuster showed up to race on the disinformation spread by Bobby F.
Lets see him carry 130 in the Suburban before we begin comparing him to Bid or Affirmed....lol
CtC
Post Edited (06-01-05 20:17)
Affirmed carried 130 or more 2 times and Bid did it 5 times, Cigar 2 times, Seattle Slew once, Secretariat zero, Forego 24 times he raced 57 times. When Forego carried over 136 looks that was it for him, he lost a bit. Won 2 out of 7 with that type of weight, that\'s a hell of a weight, I wonder what the other horses were running with those times.
Kev and Others:
RE: Weight and Greatness
Excerpted from Patrick Robinson and Richard
Stone Reeves DECADE OF CHAMPIONS.
\".. the Marlboro Cup of 1976. Saturday, September 13, the Belmont track sloppy, Forego was listed to carry 137 pounds, giving 18 pounds to Honest Pleasure and up to 28 pounds to the other nine horses in the field...\"
\" The 137 pounds was the second highest weight allocated to any horse in a major New York race in 90 years. [Racing] Secretary Tommy] Trotter observed \"If Forego gets hurt out there today... that crowd could very easily string me up from one of those big trees in the paddock...by the thumbs, or worse\"
\"All through the day, the worried figures of Frank Whitely and Martha Gerry could be seen talking earnestly. Everyone knew they were discussing taking Forego out. Shoemaker refused to give an opinion one way or the other...\"
\"...splashing into the clubhouse turn, Honest Pleasure, loving the ground, was out in front by two lengths... Forego was way back in eighth position, looking utterly unhappy and rapidly dropping himself out of it altogether\"
\"Into the final long sweeping Belmont turn, Forego seemed to have given up; he was twelve lengths behind the leader. Shoemaker, covered in mud, considered the position helpless since he could scarcely see the tearaway Honest Pleasure through the screen of mud and spray being thrown back at them\"
\"Suddenly, at the top of the stretch, Forego decided to run. He set off awkwardly, running wide, struggling to get a hold of the surface, like a big speedboat with both propellers bouncing out of the water. Finally, he straightened out and gallantly set sail for home, racing fiercely by himself on the outside, carrying his huge burden all alone-- except that, in a sense, all of us went with him\"
\"Down the stretch he charged, galloping towards a crowd that did not believe he could possibly get into the first three. Martha Gerry had put down her [binoculars]. Frank Whitely muttered something about \'We\'ve had it this time\' \"
\"But Forego was still there, eating up the ground with every stride...Shoemaker, keeping Forego perfectly balanced, had his stick poised to lash the big gelding to the wire. All the instincts gathered in the riding of 7,000 winners told him \'Go to the whip. He can\'t make it, but there\'s nothing to lose now.\' But the Shoe recalled another voice shrieking in the confusion of the moment \'For god\'s sake, don\'t touch him. He\'s doing his best\'\".
\"Through the final furlong they hurtled, passing four horses. Ten feet from the wire, Honest Pleasure still had it; three feet from the wire, he still had it. But on the wire, Forego\'s big stern head, covered in mud, hit the front like a mortar shell to win by about 10 inches.\"
Personal note: was there that day, win bet, Honest Pleasure. Hard to imagine I was ever 21 years old.
The Marlboro was Forego\'s last race that year. He came back in 1977 and won the Met under 133, the runner up, Co Host, carried 111.
In the \'77 Suburban Forego carried 138, beaten a neck, the winner, Quiet Little Table, carried 114. Off that defeat, Forego was assigned 137 in the Brooklyn Handicap and was well beaten by Great Contractor, carrying 112.
Forego finished last in the Whitney in 1977, but came back to win his fourth straight Woodward in his final race of that year.
Forego returned in 1978 to try to break Kelso\'s earnings record, but retired $39,000 short.
That\'s when a sport was a sport.
Post Edited (06-02-05 11:02)
richiebee--
Thanks for the walk down memory lane. I also bet on HONEST PLEASURE---$20 to win. Craig Perret was in shock.
I never was so happy to lose money and cheered FOREGO\'s return to the winner\'s circle. This was a terrific horse he was running down...this wasn\'t LOVE OF MONEY or POMEROY, etc...
Would love to know what his thoro # would have been that day considering the weight, trip, etc.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
Joe B said,
\"Would love to know what his thoro # would have been that day considering the weight, trip, etc.\"
Joe,
His TG fig would have been much slower than the figs awarded to \"common\" horses today. Don\'t forget TG feels that horses are two seconds faster!! today than the were years ago.
Richie-- have not played Lido. Played Hollywood yesterday, stunk so bad they might bar me from coming back.
CTC-- knock it off. We\'ve been down this road before. Get attention somewhere else.
Miff-- Rogers Hornsby hit .424. Today\'s players don\'t, so they must not be as good-- right?
1-- I didn\'t make figures for Dr. Fager.
2-- I have no way of knowing how fast the track he ran over was, so no way of answering your question.
\"Rogers Hornsby hit .424. Today\'s players don\'t, so they must not be as good-- right?\"
Maybe, maybe not. I don\'t know for sure. Shaq or Wilt? The Babe or Bonds? I don\'t think these generational comparisons have definitive answers. They are great bar arguments but I can\'t share your certainty. Figure making is just not an exact enough science for me to be convinced.
Do you believe that an average ballplayer, say Nazr Mohammed, is better than Wilt or Russell were? Because, in my opinion, that\'s the same argument as today\'s 25k claimer being faster than the classic winners of 20 years ago.
Frank
Given the relative length of a generation, it\'s more like an average NBA center against George Mikan. Who do you like? Ever see film of those guys?
Wilt and Russell would be the equivalent of racehorses of the early 90s. And I would very much like to know how Russell would even think about handling these guys today. Wilt would be competitive, but wouldn\'t dominate-- he\'d fit like the top early 90s horses would fit today.
George Mikan died yesterday at age 80. I never saw him play but I imagine you must have.
Why couldn\'t Russell have handled the current big men given that he could handle Wilt, a giant in any era?
Frank
I\'m not going to get into Russell/Wilt or the rest of the barroom arguments, but I DID NOT see Mikan play.
I\'m not convinced. I\'m going look at old photos of Mikan and check out the courtside seats.
Frank
Frank,
The one thing that I think Russ would have trouble with today may be the speed/quickness of the bigger guys today.Remember Wilt was slow motion compared to Russ.
miff,
Which big guys aside from Amare, referred to by Walton as the winner of the genetic lottery, do you think are so quick that they would cause Russell problems? Russell had great speed and quickness along with an unbelievable sense of timing.
Frank
Frank,
Last basket post. I loved Russ,fierce, tenacious, a warrior. I think Duncan and Shaq MIGHT be a bit tough for Russ.
Hey Paisan:
Interestingly, one of the horses Secretariat beat was Forego (1973 Derby).
Forego came into his own at 4, when he was champion sprinter,and Eclipse Award
winning Older Male for the first of FIVE straight years.
Forego was Horse of the Year in 74, 76 and 77.
One of the only good things to have developed in Racing recently is we have
access to the video feed of great racing from all over the world. Racing
was a regional sport in the 70s, and many may have missed Forego\'s best works.
CtC says responding to one\'s own posts is in poor form. How about quoting your
own post, a 2 year old one at that?
richiebee Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Kev and Others:
> RE: Weight and Greatness
> Excerpted from Patrick Robinson and Richard
> Stone Reeves DECADE OF CHAMPIONS.
>
> \".. the Marlboro Cup of 1976. Saturday, September
> 13, the Belmont track sloppy, Forego was listed to
> carry 137 pounds, giving 18 pounds to Honest
> Pleasure and up to 28 pounds to the other nine
> horses in the field...\"
>
> \" The 137 pounds was the second highest weight
> allocated to any horse in a major New York race in
> 90 years. Secretary [Tommy] Trotter observed \"If
> Forego gets hurt out there today... that crowd
> could very easily string me up from one of those
> big trees in the paddock...by the thumbs, or
> worse\"
>
> \"All through the day, the worried figures of
> Frank Whitely and Martha Gerry could be seen
> talking earnestly. Everyone knew they were
> discussing taking Forego out. Shoemaker refused to
> give an opinion one way or the other...\"
>
> \"...splashing into the clubhouse turn, Honest
> Pleasure, loving the ground, was out in front by
> two lengths... Forego was way back in eighth
> position, looking utterly unhappy and rapidly
> dropping himself out of it altogether\"
>
> \"Into the final long sweeping Belmont turn,
> Forego seemed to have given up; he was twelve
> lengths behind the leader. Shoemaker, covered in
> mud, considered the position helpless since he
> could scarcely see the tearaway Honest Pleasure
> through the screen of mud and spray being thrown
> back at them\"
>
> \"Suddenly, at the top of the stretch, Forego
> decided to run. He set off awkwardly, running
> wide, struggling to get a hold of the surface,
> like a big speedboat with both propellers bouncing
> out of the water. Finally, he straightened out and
> gallantly set sail for home, racing fiercely by
> himself on the outside, carrying his huge burden
> all alone-- except that, in a sense, all of us
> went with him\"
>
> \"Down the stretch he charged, galloping towards a
> crowd that did not believe he could possibly get
> into the first three. Martha Gerry had put down
> her binoculars. Frank Whitely muttered something about
> \'We\'ve had it this time\' \"
>
> \"But Forego was still there, eating up the ground
> with every stride...Shoemaker, keeping Forego
> perfectly balanced, had his stick poised to lash
> the big gelding to the wire. All the instincts
> gathered in the riding of 7,000 winners told him
> \'Go to the whip. He can\'t make it, but there\'s
> nothing to lose now.\' But the Shoe recalled
> another voice shrieking in the confusion of the
> moment \'For god\'s sake, don\'t touch him. He\'s
> doing his best\'\".
>
> \"Through the final furlong they hurtled, passing
> four horses. Ten feet from the wire, Honest
> Pleasure still had it; three feet from the wire,
> he still had it. But on the wire, Forego\'s big
> stern head, covered in mud, hit the front like a
> mortar shell to win by about 10 inches.\"
>
> Personal note: was there that day, win bet,
> Honest Pleasure. Hard to imagine I was ever 21
> years old.
>
> The Marlboro was Forego\'s last race that year.
> He came back in 1977 and won the Met under 133,
> the runner up, Co Host, carried 111.
>
> In the \'77 Suburban Forego carried 138, beaten a
> neck, the winner, Quiet Little Table, carried 114.
> Off that defeat, Forego was assigned 137 in the
> Brooklyn Handicap and was well beaten by Great
> Contractor, carrying 112.
>
> Forego finished last in the Whitney in 1977,
> but came back to win his fourth straight Woodward
> in his final race of that year.
>
> Forego returned in 1978 to try to break Kelso\'s
> earnings record, but retired $39,000 short.
>
> That\'s when a sport was a sport.
>
>
>
> Post Edited (06-02-05 11:02)
hey, Richie, that\'s a pretty good read - I think I\'ll try and find that book, thanks for posting the title/author.
Richie
I was at Belmont with my father and my late Great Uncle Benny, the Day Forego Closed from seemingly no where looking so hopeless. That was the race when I was younger that really made me into a horse racing fan. Forego nosing out Honest Pleasure in the Marlboro Cup is still vivid in my Mind.
Thanks for bringing back the memories.
NC Tony
richiebee , it\'s come full circle again , every bit as good the second time around - maybe even better - thanks . . .