Really can not believe the Belmont Racing Secreatary only put 123 on Ghostzapper in the Met.
Certainly there is a little marketing magic involved to have the top horse in the world running in your race. Clearly there is fear in having the Trainer scared off.
However there is some responsibility to the tradition of the sport and the immortals who raced before him, if Ghostzapper wants to be held in that same regard, to make him EARN IT just like they did.
Tend to agree Silver. I think they wanted to give Funny Cide 126 or 127 in his first back off a Breeders Cup debacle.
Ghostsprinter should be that AT LEAST. Lets at least ask him to carry the Triple Crown imposts. Forest Danger should probably be in receipt of 7 pounds. But the real issue is Ghostsprinter taking OFF weight from the last two...lmao
Doesnt matter hes going down to chinatown.
Post Edited (05-28-05 21:18)
That was the first thing I noticed as well today looking at the PP\'s.. It\'s the Metropolitan for god sakes!
I know it\'s not the same \"anymore\", but go back 15 years to the famed \'90 Met.. Easy Goer got 127 in the matchup versus Housebuster (113) and Criminal Type (120).
Kasept you took one of races from my memory bank, the other being Seeking the Gold who was either 125 or 127 like Goer. Both horses I believe were making their respective first starts of the year having RUN SECOND in their final start of the previous year. Which just so happened to be the Breeders Cup Classic a race GZ last won.
Not a single horse in this field has more than one Grade One win on his resume and Silver Wagon\'s last win was a 2X, and yet GZ is only giving 5-9 pounds.
I am all for racing building stars to get more space in the prime media sports section, but this is really a rip-off.
Whining Bobby recently scratched Megahertz from the Gamely for picking up a pound [124] after winning the GII Santa Barbara.
The racing secretaries should pile on the weight on all of Frankel\'s runners. He\'ll keep scratching and eventually some of the owners will get ticked off for keeping the horses in the barn.
123 in the Met is laughable.
During the weeks before the Derby, High Limit worked with Zapper and was forced wide on a couple occasions, making me wonder how sound he is. Him scratching wouldn\'t be a surprise.
Just came across this one and Finley hits the nail on the head.
http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/horse/columns/story?id=2069156
If both Trainer and Owner want to say we could have retired him so feel lucky he is still racing. I say fine just DON\'T TELL ME HE IS A GREAT HORSE.
>But does talent equal greatness? It\'s a question Frankel and Stronach apparently don\'t feel needs to be answered.
Maybe in their minds, but not in the minds of people who know better.
This Great One won\'t elevate his performance.
Even on the biggest stages at the lightest weights.
He seems to be able to summon up something extra and thru shear will produce nothing.
Post Edited (05-29-05 09:10)
He\'s a great horse. The number\'s he\'s putting up are sick man. Now if he wins the Met by 2L\'s or less then you all can talk about weight, but what if he wins by 4 or more then what?? It\'s not his fault they put 123 on, take it up with Bel. Then again Bobby might have said, put more on and I\'m going somewhere else. Great horses like this draws the fans out, Cigar, Skip Away, and SJ...and so on. I think some old school fans is never going to say that there has been a great horse snice the way back era. I love people when they say, this horse could have never stand a chance with so-and-so back in the days. Ghost might have 4 more races in him and he\'s gone.
When did Ghostsprinter first become great? Was it in the Vosburgh where he beat Aggadan by 6? Aggadan has never won a graded stakes. Posse was in that race and finished a length behind Aggadan. Not sure Posse ever ran again.
Was it the Tom Fool where he beat Aggadan again by 4 lengths and Unforgettable Max by seven? Everyone beats Unforgettable Max by 7 sprinting though.
Was it the wet Track Iselin where he beat Presidential Affair by 10? Hard to say, Presidential Affair just got beat near that badly the other day by Eddington.
Was it the neck decision over Saint Liam with Bowman\'s Band back 9 lengths in third? Was that Bowman\'s last race or did he go one more? Great Ghostzapper seems to be catching lots of horses in their last race doens\'t he?
Was it the Breeders Cup Classic where he negotiated a pace with Ramsey and ran over the best part of the track while nearly the whole field encountered tough trips, injury or retirement?
Ghostsprinter has caught some decent breaks in this Met Mile. He\'s very lightly weighted and the field is not stellar. If he wins this one by 6 though we can start calling him Great.
Post Edited (05-29-05 11:52)
Why does it seem every year around the Breeder\'s Cup there are about a dozen trainers lamenting that \'the Sprint is a little short for their horse, but he\'s not quite as good on turf and he really doesn\'t want 1 1/4 miles. A flat mile on dirt hits him right between the eyes.\' And every year the Met Mile, one of the great races, draws a six or seven horse field... probably five this year if it isn\'t wet.
Stronach didn\'t make Millions by starting out washing dishes without being a competitor. Put some serious weight on this horse and if the owner and trainer choose to leave him in the barn then they have answered everyones question. He is not a Great Horse.
Should the NYRA franchise be acquired by Stronach is the Racing Secretary afraid he will lose his job because of those extra THREE POUNDS he put on his horse.
As long as this charade goes on there will be some of us who will not let it go in fairness to The Truly Great Ones who came along before this paper champion.
So let me ask you this CTC, your going rate great horses by who there running against now?? Forget the fig\'s uh?? People are so full of ****, some people will say Sec. was great because he ran this fast and broke so many records, then GZ comes alone and runs very fast and now it\'s, oh look who he\'s beaten. Well look who the hell Sec. beat in the Bel. that day?? after that he kept running vs. Cougar II and Our Native. The fact is if there were better horses out there that day when GZ was running, then where in the hell was they at?? and to give a sorry reason for the BC win on pace is just sad my man.
Ok then SC the great Sec, didnt carry high weight is he not a great one?? Only in the TC races which everyone carry the same amount, after that he was getting weight breaks for being a 3yr, and even then he lost two times. Like I said early if he wins by so much the weights don\'t matter, also how can you tell, how much weight he sould be having?? Like they gave him 123, how did they come up with that??
Ghostzappers one race where he met serious competition (other than the woodward) was the B.C. Classic. That race completely fell apart and I\'ve discounted EVERYONES numbers from that day. Though LoneStar is a joke, Roses in May ran a race thereafter that lent some credence to the classic.
I think Ghostsprinter is going down today for a number of reasons. At 2-5 its wise to stake out a position against him. This is probably the weakest edition of the Met Mile though since Exciting Story won, so thats in GZ\'s favor. He\'s been a pretty well managed horse and has been in the right spot. Today he catches a weak field and spots little weight. If he\'s great he wins this by six easily.
Kev,
Debating with the Clown is an exercise in futility. Doublespeak at the highest level.
In naming all of those wins by Ghostzapper, there is no mention of any of the figures that the horse earned in those races. Why? Because if he did, he would realize that GZ has run the two fastest figures every on T-Graph and a few others in the top 20.
So for the purposes of this debate, figures are irrelevant. However, you can find many other Clown posts with statements like \"Jerry is the best on 3 year olds\", \"You have to defer to Thorograph\", etc.etc.
I would lay 2-1 that Clown hasn\'t purchased a Thorograph in the past 6 months, which is his prerogative, but then don\'t make the misleading comments.
GZ is very fast on the figures. On this, Jerry, Beyer and Rags all agree. The horse has been dominant from 7 furlongs to 1 1/4. What else can he do? Now Frankel and Stronach want to run on grass.
The fact that they are going with a light campaign again this year is not because they are ducking competition. Frankel says every chance he gets that he is a sheets user and as such, he believes that horses run their best when fresh. He has been right with Ghostzapper.
I don\'t like Frankel and I am sure many others would share that opinion, but the fact is that GZ is something special.
That doesn\'t mean he can\'t lose tomorrow though. If you can get 2-1 on Forest Danger, I think it might be worth a shot to beat GZ. Off the paired -4.5, getting 5 pounds, with GZ possibly not fully cranked, there is probably a decent gamble at that price.
I don\'t think you get it though. 3-5 on GZ, 8-5 on Forest Danger.
Clown,
More unsupported statements. The BC Classic fell apart? What exactly do you base that on? Roses in May won the richest race in the world this year, pretty easily.
And GZ needs to win by 6? Forest Danger is coming in off of paired negative 4\'s. I am assuming you at least understand figures a little bit. If Forest Danger pairs up again, getting a five pound pull in the weights, GZ has to run a negative 7 or 8 to justify himself?
Do you not believe the figures for the horses or not understand them? I really don\'t mean that sarcastically, because most anybody on this board who has seen a thorograph and believes in the figures, will tell you that GZ beating FD, spotting him 5 pounds, is a tall order. Winning by 6 is a ridiculously tall order unless you don\'t believe in the figures or you have some reason to expect a huge \"X\" from Forest Danger.
GZ could win his 4 races this year and maybe one on the grass and your still going to have people saying he shouldnt be a great one, just a real good horse. Two reasons, the good old days, and people just don\'t like Bobby F.
Race time is getting close, lets not go over the B.C. Classic meltdown again. Its just not worth the time right now.
Regarding Forest Danger\'s figs, theres no doubt he caught consecutive mother of all greased lightning strips in his last two. That 1.14.44 was monumentally fast. (A track Record) This was something I was not aware of earlier and its incumbant to acknowledge oversight in deliberating Tgraph\'s \"rescoring\" upon that race. After reviewing the card more carefully you have to be inclined to believe Forest Danger ran very fast.
Which is not to concede April 9th at Aqueduct is as fast as everyone seems to think. If it is and Forest Danger is sitting on paired negative fours your point is noted. What if he\'s sitting on paired negative 2\'s however or even a negative 4, negative 2....does that put him in an 0-2 race position? (Caveat note Pletchers race spacing this year after a long layoff)
Just finished TGraphs ROTW and agree that a horse which bears consideration is Silver Wagon. TGraph gave him an X rail you have to be inclined to believe it certainly was that day. This is a good horse that has had some misfortune. Hes got the potential (you always need luck) to pull it off or perhaps make it pay. Pomeroy looks to be sitting on his best race too.
If Ghostzapper doesnt win this race against marginal competition by 6 lengths he\'s not great. If he gets beat, hes a sham.
Post Edited (05-29-05 13:45)
i really don\'t understand the frankel hater vibe here. whatever. this horse has put up some monster numbers. several of them in fact.
as far as monday:
i think the morning line is dead on. i may take a small stand against gz in the pick four because he will much worse than morning line in those pools. if he wins, i\'ll just enjoy the show.
>Because if he did, he would realize that >GZ has run the two fastest figures every >on T-Graph and a few others in the top 20.
So why then is he only carrying 123 pounds. Someone is wrong here, who is it??
GZ is giving 9 pounds too a horse whose last win was in a 2X and is trained by Ralph Zadie. Can not believe that Secretariat wouldn\'t be giving at least 19 pounds or maybe even 90.
>but the fact is that GZ is something special.
I know what something special is when I see it. I will let you know when GZ does something remotely close to that.
In same sentence Frankel compared GZ to Secretariat he said he was going to put GZ on grass.
After that comment I hope it doesn\'t come from his own personal stash.
Silver Charm wrote:
> In same sentence Frankel compared GZ to Secretariat he said he
> was going to put GZ on grass.
>
> After that comment I hope it doesn\'t come from his own personal
> stash.
>
lmao
Secretariat didn\'t need drugs.
If he wins by six tomorrow, we can start talking great. Is the Woodward handicap or weight for age? I can\'t remember. The Whitney is weight for age if i remember correctly
By all means, all-knowing Silver Charm, please let the rest of us plebes know when GZ has done something special, since you know what this is, but the rest of us don\'t.
I see this is coming from the same guy who said that Lukas entered Going Wild in the Derby on behalf of Tabor, then re-entered in the Preakness despite TAbor\'s horse being on the sidelines. And then had the audacity to scoff at the rest of the people on this board for not seeing his \"crystal clear\" logic....
The horse is extremely fast from 7 furlongs to 1 1/4. He won the BC Classic easily, which is supposed to the top race in this country. Yes, he should carry more weight in the Met Mile, but unfortunately he is not, maybe some type of pressure from Frankel on the racing secretary, who knows. But the horse is the fastest horse in this generation according to all the figure makers.
Clown, you are doing it again. \"What if Forest Danger is sitting on paired negative 2\'s and not negative 4\'s\". He isn\'t. What if GZ\'s top is really negative 4 and then he paired that in the Woodward. Not pairing negative 6\'s bit actually negative 4\'s. What if Silver Wagon is sitting on a top of negative 6?
What is with all the \"what if\'s\"? Why come on this board and start questioning figures WITHOUT proof? If you have any, supply it, my guess is that you will get an answer. Otherwise, analyze the race based on the figures. FD has paired up negative 4\'s. GZ has run as fast as negative 6, but off the layoff, with a hole drilled in his head, with bigger goals in front of him, is he likely to fire negative 6 tomorrow? Probably not. Considering he is spotting FD 5 pounds and recency, a win tomorrow by any margin is a solid win.
SC is one of those cats who won\'t let go of the good old days. I\'m telling ya, there\'s some people that won\'t admit great horses of this time, cause there hanging onto something from the past. SC let me ask you this, has there been any horses in the past 10 years that could be called great, or like you say \"something special\" ?? I love when people knocks CIGAR, or SKIP AWAY. CIGAR ran in 15 G1\'s, his record 15-11-2-1 just in G1\'s. Give me some names of the old great ones??
Whether GZ is an \"immortal\" or deserves a place in history is fun to debate, because there is no tangible way of determining how he would fare against the great ones of the past,so the debate could continue into infinity.
No question that GZ relishes the big oval at Belmont. GZ\'s past efforts at Bel in the Vosburgh and Tom Fool lead me to believe that he would be favored in, and could win, the BC Sprint.
It is this type of versatility that makes GZ unique if not immortal. I remember in the early 1980s that Olden Times still held the track record for 7/8s of a mile at Churchill(set in 1964, I believe) and also held the 1-3/4 mile turf track record at Santa Anita. Today it seems like our stars are specialists-- sprinters, milers, marathoners--and GZs ability to be competitive sprinting and routing at the highest level is something we rarely see.
Give credit to Stronach for keeping him in training for 4 years, and to Frankel for keeping him together.
In the Met, Forest Danger\'s last race was fast, but he couldn\'t have gotten a better pace set up behind the dueling Don Six and Medallist. D Six came back and was beaten by a NY bred in an open stake and Medallist came back injured. I would usually try to beat a 1/2 proposition in this spot, but this is GZs favored surface and he should be carrying no less than 128 lbs.
The unfortunate part of the light weight assigned GZ is that if he was carrying 128 or more, more owners/trainers may have been willing to take a shot in this race.
>By all means, all-knowing Silver Charm, please let the rest of us plebes know when GZ has done something special, since you know what this is, but the rest of us don\'t.
Jimbo glad to see you have finally found your identity....and mine too. I have explained the Lukas, Tabor angle on Derby Day once, that\'s all you get.
The Racing Secretary tells me GZ is NOT a Great Horse. I believe him.
So far GZ has won TWICE going two turns, once at Monmouth where he beat MonicaLewinsky and once at Lone Star Park. Both are considered extreme speed-favoring strips. In the Lone Star race the pace was negotiated in the paddock before the race.
If those are the quality\'s of a Great Horse in your book so be it, not mine.When Mineshaft won Horse of the Year he had a far better record than GZ did last year. He was on the edge of being called a Great Horse but like a lot of them left too soon. Cigar and Skip Away would certainly fit into category. They weren\'t afraid to show up and run anywhere and they carried the pounds too boot.
So far GZ has done neither.
While I think Ghostzapper should be carrying more weight in the Met,I find it useless to compare him to any horses that aren\'t from the present period for obvious reasons.If the playing field were level then it might be a worthwhile debate.
Silver Charm wrote:
> If those are the quality\'s of a Great Horse in your book so be
> it, not mine.When Mineshaft won Horse of the Year he had a far
> better record than GZ did last year. He was on the edge of
> being called a Great Horse but like a lot of them left too
> soon. Cigar and Skip Away would certainly fit into category.
> They weren\'t afraid to show up and run anywhere and they
> carried the pounds too boot.
>
> So far GZ has done neither.
There can\'t be much of an issue here. Ghostzapper is carrying 123 pounds. Thats a feather. If he doesnt win this edition of the Met Mile by 6 lengths in 1.33.0 he sucks. He ran a 1.59 at Lonestar right? Another Negative 4! Its a no brainer. No contest.
He\'ll burn right to the front and eyeball them with his class. He\'ll put fear and intimidation into this sorry field with a glance of his all knowing eye. He\'ll pound down the stretch increasing his lead at every mark. Remember the B.C. Classic? he ran the last quarter in 23.64:
23.42, 47.00, 1:11.32, 1:35.38, 1:59.02
This is no ordinary horse. This horse is Great. This horse is the fastest of ALL TIMES. He\'s the ALL TIMES greatest horse of da World. How dare you long term handicappers not acknowledge the majesty of Ghostsprinter da Giantkiller. Bow down and pray to your equine God. Back your icon at the windows with both hands. When a horse can\'t lose 40 centavo on da dollar is like stolen money. Its free money baby.
Post Edited (05-30-05 11:48)
I think there are two problems with having overly high expectations for GZ for today.
1. Frankel or no Frankel, it is very difficult to get a horse ready to win a \"high quality\" Grade 1 race off a long layoff. IMO, there\'s a MASSIVE difference between getting a horse ready to fire close to his best figure in a Grade 2 prep race against comparative bums and getting him ready to fire his absolute best figure in the Met Mile where the pace is almost certain to tough and demanding and several horses are budding stars.
2. I would not underrate either Love of Money or Forest Danger. Both of them are lightly raced budding stars.
If GZ wins today, IMO it won\'t matter much if he runs a -1 or a -4 to do it. There\'s no way this horse is 100% today even if he\'s fit enough to run a -6 against garbage cans or when a race falls apart in front of him (which could happen today).
IMO, it would probably be better training to bring him back running a -2 and accept the result than having him sharp enough to put up a -4 or faster trying to win.
Class there is one more you left out.
Frankel was on an 0 for 20 streak at Hollywood until he won yesterday. Frankel is winning at 15.1% over the last 90 days since a lot of the major testing procedures have been implemented. A far cry from the 26-28% he had been winning at over the last two years.