Just curious as to what everyone is thinking out there.
Let\'s say AFLEET ALEX had fallen (thank GOD this terrific athlete did not) causing a tragic accident which included several other horses and riders.
Do you think Ramon Dominquez would have been held accountable and suspended??
Good Luck,
Joe B.
Tough call. If I were a steward I would disqualify the horse and hold the rider blameless. A grade 1 horse should not be reacting to a whip like he did.
joe,
the stewards said that \"no rules were broken\" and they saw \"no human error\".
on another note, OTB channel saying dutrow might bring back love of money in five days to run in the met mile. gotta love that guy.
MO wrote:
> Tough call. If I were a steward I would disqualify the horse
> and hold the rider blameless. A grade 1 horse should not be
> reacting to a whip like he did.
Beyer thinks that Scrappy was tiring on the turn. He proped to the noise of the crowd and the whip strike further alarmed and spooked him. He has to mature a little, but hes a thoroughbred. Many times they are defense mechanism animals. He chased a fast pace. Was rating in hand dying to run and he got spooked at the head of the stretch. He had every right to be tired on that pace, but was he? Agree with your interpretation MO.
Michael D. wrote:
>
> on another note, OTB channel saying dutrow might bring back
> love of money in five days to run in the met mile. gotta love
> that guy.
>
Hmmmmm 5 days? I missed his previous start it seems. I dont know if he can be ready for a top effort on five days rest, but with weight a one turn mile would be right up Love of Money\'s alley.
Have to disagree. I thought Dominguez would get time despite the lack of a need for a DQ. To me, whacking the horse that hard on the left side, while turning for home, was reckless riding.
Aren\'t most riders conscious of horses bearing out on the far turn, and if so, isn\'t it logical to hit them on the opposite side that Dominguez did? And isn\'t hitting them at that point on the turn kind of strange? After they straighten out for home, yes, mid-turn - no.
Reckless IMO.
He should get time, even though no DQ was necessary. If it weren\'t for that horse\'s athleticism and a nice job by Rose, there could have been a seriously dangerous incident there. (and a horse looking for a tainted triple crown at Belmont........)
jim,
you can\'t suspend a rider because he whipped a horse on the turn, doesn\'t matter what hand he did it with.
......
although i have no idea why he did it.
Post Edited (05-25-05 17:48)
Talked after the race with Randy Moss of ESPN and he agreed that it seemed wierd that Dominguez hit AA left handed coming out of the final turn. Answer when ? was asked was that Scrappy has a habit of bearing in after the final turn so subsequently the left hand whip. I believe SCRAPPY was also getting tired and the incident may have energized both horses in the final analysis. IMHO no matter what tendancies if a horse is coming out of the final turn drifting hitting hin left handed makes no SENSE.
The boy should get 30 days and an ass kicking..........We\'ve seen this ride before.
Author: spa
Date: 05-25-05 18:01
The boy should get 30 days and an ass kicking..........We\'ve seen this ride before.
Agreed spa.
That shot by Dominguez would\'ve made Earlie Fires and Chop Chop Chavez blush. He hit the horse in the ribs for pete\'s sake, not his flank. The horse no doubt wondered what was going on.
We live in politically correct times. If it had been Cordero, he would have kicked the guy as he was falling.
That made me laugh so hard. You are so right.
NC Tony
Michael,
I hear you. But it was the WAY he hit the horse, WHEN he hit horse and WHERE he hit the horse.
If they want to, they can suspend him. That \'reckless riding\' clause can be interpreted pretty widely. Similar to the \'best interests of baseball\' clause.....
A quality horse shouldn\'t react to a whip like that no matter how hard he\'s struck- if its on his flank.
The problem with Dominguez is that instead of reaching back and hitting the horse where he was supposed to-he smashed him in the ribs.Nobody even mentions that.Of course the horse is going to react like that.Who the hell hits a horse in his fully exposed ribs like that coming off the turn?
And Bailes is going to use him again on the horse.Is he crazy?
Post Edited (05-25-05 18:40)
Reminds me of one of my more prophetic comments when working as bugler at Belmont. Cordero was in his last year riding. If he had fallen one more time, they\'d need a front loader to scoop him off the track.
Anyway, he comes back from a losing mount (can\'t recall for whom) but here he comes down the tunnel and he\'s begging Pete Ferriola to ride this mount next time out. He had tears in his eyes saying \"Come on Pete, I\'m an old man, gimmie a break\".
Right then and there I said OUT LOUD \"This guy\'s a better agent than he is a jockey!\"
In hindsight,I wasn\'t very far off.
Post Edited (05-25-05 18:50)
Figuring out why horses do things isn\'t as easy as seeing what they do. Its possible Scrappy was gassed at the end of the turn, but if he was he was full of run and on a long lead heading into it. He also had a nice stride until wrapped up late. Additionally no one came and picked him up.
Scrappy ran a fourth quarter of 25.12 (with bear out and interruption) after being right on a .46 and 1.10.4 He then ran 3/16ths in 19.90 after the incident and wrapped up when it was certain he wasnt gonna wear down or be put up over Alex. Giacomo picked up 2 lengths when clear and saving ground in the last fraction. Not sure he gains an inch but for the trouble. Is Scrappy a Belmont horse? Prolly not, few are. Is he gonna hammer most of this crop? Probably.
\"A quality horse shouldn\'t react to a whip like that no matter how hard he\'s struck- if its on his flank.\"
what does this have to do with \"quality\"? i saw MO make a similar statement. i guess thorograph needs to start charting reaction to the whip instead of speed figures and we can make our selections based up that.
Quality horses have been properly schooled.
Crappy T has all the quality of a maiden claimer.
Come on people, we all know now that these horses are piece of crap milers. None could carry Alysheba\'s tack to the paddock. Let\'s move on to the Belmont where some other piece of crap miler will win, and it won\'t be Afleet Alex. He\'s toast.
lol
Scrappy has never been worse than 3rd. Though he was way off form in that Wood. He has had some issues straightening out, but he can overcome that.
Alysheba would have won that Derby, but he\'d of lost that Preakness. Alysheba didn\'t do so good in the Belmont either. Matter of fact due to his 4th he lost the bonus to Bet Twice is my recollection.
I know, I know. It was all that Lasix BS. McCarron sez he screwed up, but if Alysheba had lasix we would be talking less about Seattle Slew and more about the greatest horse to ever look through a bridle - Alysheba.
wink
No doubt some of the worse race riding seen in my 15 years of being around the game , in my nievity I thought the horse would invariably be placed last - Scrappy T had a better chance of winning at that juncture had the goof ball jock droped his whip ...
jeez louise...OK, I\'ll add my two cents to this brain trust:
1) what if don Denkinger calls him out?
2) what if the russian ref knows the real time left in the game clock?
3) what if Ruffian stays healthy?
4) what if Bucky Dent pops out?
5) what if Bobby Orr played for the Leafs?
6) what if cigar stayed on turf?
why is this conversation happening? We want handicapping conversations...please!
shanahan wrote:
\"why is this conversation happening? We want handicapping conversations...please!\"
So what\'s preventing you from posting about handicapping, bunky?
>and a horse looking for a tainted triple crown at Belmont........)
You are assuming everything would have occurred as it did. You, me and everyone else don\'t know that.
I\'m sure like all of us you have seen numerous spills and it resembles a NASCAR accident where all of the other riders go into damage control. Save the horse and your own rear-end.
For all we know Going Wild could be wearing the Black-Eyed Susans.
Post Edited (05-26-05 08:06)
SC,
Whatever would have happened, Going wild wouldn\'t be wearing the Black-Eyed Susans.
First of all, it is irrelevant as to what would have happened.
But, 99% likely that Giacomo would have won. Normally, a spill would scatter all the horses and you would have chaos, agreed. But this particular spill would have happened in the 5 or 6 path, as they were well clear of the rest of the horses. Not likely anything about the order of finish would have changed.
Scrappy made the lead with his ears pricked. He did it easily and hadn\'t been asked to run yet. Ramon made an idiotic move, winding up and hitting him very hard IN THE RIBS. Maybe he felt the horse let up a bit, but it wasn\'t because he was tiring. I think it was either the wall of noise or the horse relaxed a bit once he made the lead so easily. AA was coming like a frieght train,but it would have been interesting to see if a stretch developed. Ramon should defintely be penalized for STUPIDITY. He\'s not ready for prime time.
OF course The fact that I had a huge double going with Eddington and Scappy T, colors my view. But I did save it with AA over Scrappy T in the Exacta.
Funny that there were two separate threads after the Preakness which could have been connected but weren\'t:
Thread 1: The possibility that Thunder Gulch was \"electrically aided\" in his Derby win.
Thread 2: The contortion of Scrappy T after being struck by Dominquez\' whip in the Preakness. I am not saying that Dominquez (who took too much heat for his Preakness ride, IMO) carried a battery, but I feel confident that said device is still used in in some instances in morning training.
The way it used to work was that an exercise rider or groom would plug the horse in the morning, and then the jock, in the afternoon, would merely have to go near the spot where the horse had been hit to get the desired result.
Josephus wrote:
> Scrappy made the lead with his ears pricked. He did it easily
> and hadn\'t been asked to run yet.
Didn\'t think Scrappy was the least bit tired either. Guess we\'ll see. Even when he took the shot, Scrappy had a look to him like \"What the **** was that.\" They need to enter him in every big money 3YO race Alex skips. Hes got a lucrative future. Liked him post Whirlaway. Doubted him post Wood. Reliked him post Withers. Now hes a second favorite.
One other thing if the old eyes don\'t deceive. Hes a bit of a brut aint he?
Post Edited (05-26-05 13:42)
I can actually see Wayne in the Winners Circle wearing a big smile and telling the Media, \"We caught a couple of breaks but I know in my heart I ran the best horse\".
I\'m wondering if D. Wayne Lost-It is considering the Met Mile-Belmont Stakes combo for GOING WILD.
Think he\'ll be able to talk the Lewises\' into that one??
Good Luck,
joe B.
Chuckles
On Scrappy T:
Your eyes don\'t deceive.Nice looking animal with a cruising gear.Has a ton of upside.The old man Fit to Fight was ok at 3-good at 4-a beast at 5.Scrappy the gelding will be around for a while.Plenty of time to rack up wins.Take another crack at Alex now.If Alex runs back to his Preakness its lights out,but seeing an effort that good or close to it is no sure thing in the Belmont.Besides,second money of 200k isn\'t bad either.
I wonder about Bailes-saddle slips in the Wood-horse goes to sleep once he makes the lead in the Withers,Preakness antics-I think this horse could be much more right now in another barn.If I owned him-I\'d give Bailes the spring and summer,and if he\'s not straightened out by then I\'m turning him over to Mandella.That s.o.b knows how to win those million dollar pots in his backyard.
big18741 wrote:
> Chuckles
>
> On Scrappy T:
>
> Your eyes don\'t deceive.Nice looking animal with a cruising
> gear.Has a ton of upside.The old man Fit to Fight was ok at
> 3-good at 4-a beast at 5.Scrappy the gelding will be around for
> a while...Besides,second money of 200k isn\'t bad either.
> I wonder about Bailes-saddle slips in the Wood-horse goes to
> sleep once he makes the lead in the Withers,Preakness antics-I
> think this horse could be much more right now in another
> barn.If I owned him-I\'d give Bailes the spring and summer,and
> if he\'s not straightened out by then I\'m turning him over to
> Mandella.That s.o.b knows how to win those million dollar pots
> in his backyard.
Yeah, I\'m well aware of his Papa. Of course, the thing with a Gelding is maximize his return. With Funny Cide, they were forced into the Triple Crown in an attempt to win it. This guy has no reason to run the Belmont unless they really think they can win. Its not like they need a Grade I at distance for his stud career, which is a shame. Its always disappointing to see a good race horse that got gelded along the way, though they say its sometimes necessary. I don\'t know about that.
Haskell, West Virginia Derby, Ohio Derby, Pennslyvania Derby. Super Derby. This guy can earn quite a bit.
I hear that - recently I asked pace guys for a morning line on a race (like the one colt neck\'s speed used to offer in their data over at MTH )and got none . as far as the jock blog ,I feel it is relevent and with merit from a handicapping perspective to ponder whether a rider would do something stupid etc