Bobby Frankel, who trains Shadwell Turf Mile winner Nothing to Lose for owner Ken Ramsey, said he thinks people are overreacting in criticizing Ramsey for his attempt to get a rival owner to scratch a horse from a race at Turfway Park on Dec. 31. Ramsey was suspended for seven days and fined $25,000 by the Kentucky Horse Racing Authority.
\"These people who are criticizing him - how many of them have given $50 to the maitre d\' at the turf club or Joe\'s Stone Crabs to jump over someone?\" Frankel said. \"They\'re hypocrites.\"
Frankel must be crazy if he thinks tampering with a sporting event, which I believe is a felony, is the same as tipping a maitre d\' at Joe\'s Stone Crab. This is an example of a demented person who the racing establishment does not need. Additionally, a $50 tip at Joe\'s Stone Crab would probably not get you put ahead of anyone.
MInfurna wrote:
> \"These people who are criticizing him - how many of them have
> given $50 to the maitre d\' at the turf club or Joe\'s Stone
> Crabs to jump over someone?\" Frankel said. \"They\'re
> hypocrites.\"
Minfurna, this is just par for the course regarding Frankel. He really doesn\'t see anything wrong with \"stacking the deck\". Even Ramsey at least \"purported\" to acknowledge it was underhanded because he apologized for it at the Eclipse Awards. The question is what will these guys stop at to win? Paying for scratches? Conspiring to alter pace? Tubing a horse? Sponging one? Administerring drugs? and if you can pay for a scratch why not move a juiced horse into the open slot? Especially when being on top of a sire list is at stake and acclaim and stud fees are at issue. Its all about winning isn\'t it?, especially for these guys. Ramsey and Frankel are bona fide crooks and we have to keep our eye on them. I agree the game would be better without both.
CtC
Ramsey loves to send it in at the windows, so it should come as no surprise that he would look for an edge.I hear he\'s an ok guy from people who him personally but I\'m weary of his constant s--t eating grin.
Man, I can\'t believe I\'m defending him, but here goes!
I have no problem concerning this IF it occurs before betting has started. This has been going on for years! Best (albiet alleged) example?
Spectacular Bid\'s \"walkover\" in the Woodward stakes. The race had few entries, wet track the night before, leaving one challanger (Winter\'s Tale) It has been said that either NYRA OR the Meyerhoffs \"encouraged\" the last scratch as they did not want a match race (Ruffian\'s tragedy was too fresh!)
I have a bigger problem with claiming circles that either don\'t claim from each other, or if they do, don\'t hurt \'em during the race!
Someone ought to keep track of how many beaten favorites run off the board, then AFTER the race, we find out it was claimed!
You aint kidding there, I hear he bets big time.
Personally, I don't have a big problem with owners theoretically negotiating where to run their horses beforehand in an effort to maximize their profit as long \"as it isn't after the betting has begun\".
Why would it be wrong for me to offer another owner "x" amount of dollars to scratch?
It's a simple business transaction between two "private owners" that has no impact on the betting. Importantly, as long as everyone can theoretically participate in these types of negotiations there is no problem.
Where I would have a problem is if the negotiation extended to pace manipulation etc....
Let's assume I have a one dimensional speed horse and there is one other speed horse entered that can ruin the race for me.
The other owner has to decide how much it is worth for him to scratch his horse and wait for another race. That might depend on fees already paid, what similar opportunities to run are available, where they are, when etc... his chance of winning the race in question. I have to decide how much I am willing to pay to gain an advantage. If everyone is playing the same game, so what?
Handicappers shouldn't care less. Either way they will be presented with a set of past performances to dope out that will either contain 1 or 2 speed horses. The odds will be adjusted accordingly.
Now if I paid another owner to take his speed horse back, there is a huge problem because they are manipulating the outcome of a sporting/gambling event without the knowledge of other gamblers.
The problem of course is in whether the appearance of impropriety has potential to ripen into impropriety itself and thats a risk some folks (Frankel included) are willing to take. I have serious problems giving any credibility to Robert Frankel on this issue. As far as witnesses go, he\'s tantamount to a felon with multiple convictions for credit card fraud saying \"This application is legitimate\". Let\'s be real, do you want Robert Frankel testifying on your behalf? I wouldn\'t want to be seen with him.
Below is the regulation involved. If you allow private parties to become involved in which horses get to run in a specific race, is there at least the potential for abuse? I don\'t think it\'s even a debatable issue, but then I tend to require integrity in things:
\"The regulation, 810 KAR 1:028 Section 2, (3) deals with disciplinary action. It states that racing stewards may, upon finding a violation or attempted violation on racing association grounds: "Cause any person, licensed or unlicensed, found to have interfered with, or contributed toward the interference of, the orderly conduct of a race or race meeting, or person whose presence is found by the stewards to be inconsistent with maintaining the honesty and integrity of the sport of horse racing, to be excluded or ejected from association grounds or any portion of association ground.":
http://kentucky.gov/Newsroom/environment/1-17kennethramsey.htm
CTC-- That\'s a pretty broad statute.
On your earlier question-- as I have said before (I went into some detail about this at the DRF Expo, and it made the DVD), I started with Ragozin, worked for him for a few years in the 70\'s as a kid, continued to use his data to bet and manage horses until early 1980. Clearly, my starting point was his ideas-- when I walked out of there I thought he had invented and perfected speed figures (due in no small part to Len trying to create that impression-- the blurb he uses in the Thoroughbred Times still refers to him as \"the father of speed figures\"). It wasn\'t until I had extensive conversations with Connie Merjos (first Ragozin trackman, the one who taught Len about run-ups, showed him how to do live ground and wind, publisher of the \"Beard\" tip sheet, etc.) that I began to learn otherwise. It was Connie who gave me the Donaldson book from the 30\'s, which is where he learned to make figures long before he ever met Ragozin.
But that was recently. I would have to say that I haven\'t picked up anything from books, which is an unfortunate trend in my life since I dropped out of college-- I would have saved myself a whole lot of time and pain if I had used knowledge others had collected rather than invent the wheel all the time.
As for the question you were answering-- my suggestion is to look at the ROTWs, which are archived on this site.
CTC,
I realize that many on this board have a very low opinion of Frankel, but I really have no opinion at all. I don\'t know him personally and I have no proof of anything else. To me he is just another trainer that I have to cope with as a handicapper.
Post Edited (01-28-05 11:03)
TGJB,
The very first book I read on horseracing long pre-dated Beyer, Ainslie, etc.. It had a speed figure time chart in it and discussed form cycles etc... It was an introductory book, but with some tweaking of the time chart it was OK.
Ray Talbot also had some interesting stuff that I believe pre-dated the modern numbers handicappers. In fact, even though it can argued that a lot of his pace and speed charts have been improved on, I think he had a lot of great insights long before the modern authors got popular. If I have any complaint about him is that he often looked for simple systems with rules for identifying live longshots.
I think there were plenty of terrific handicappers that did some really advanced stuff long ago.
People have just taken that info and used computers, race replays, etc... to improve on it. Now they also coordinate their efforts on a larger scale.
Post Edited (01-28-05 11:02)
Yeah, that regulation is broad, but folks that cheat have lots of ingenuity.
TGJB wrote:
I would have to say that I haven\'t
> picked up anything from books, which is an unfortunate trend in
> my life since I dropped out of college-- I would have saved
> myself a whole lot of time and pain if I had used knowledge
> others had collected rather than invent the wheel all the time.
Sometimes you have to wonder if they got the wheel right and the only way to tell is to try and understand the wheel by hacking it outta stone again.
Believe me, CtC, Jerry generates enough stone chippings to lay a major highway.
Yeah, I got your chippings right here.
mandown wrote:
> Believe me, CtC, Jerry generates enough stone chippings to lay
> a major highway.
lol
Man, I think I read a post by Jerry where he said you were an officer at The Racing Times. (Hope my swiss cheese memory isn\'t failing me on this.) If you were, I\'d just like to say that I picked the first complimentary copy of The Racing Times up at Gulfstream Park and after a day of studying it I never bought the DRF again during it\'s run. The only thing that bothered me was the period when workouts were not contained within it. I know the DRF source was wholly unreliable. It was a great advancement to those wanting to bet with more information.
Chuckles -
\"Wholly unreliable\" is an understatement!
How do you think he got that new Mercedes every year...maybe all those 1:05 printed works for horses who actually breezed in 59 flat?
When I moved to Florida in 1989 and went out to GP for the morning workouts, the DRF clocker was the first person to approach me - with an interrogation of who, what, why, etc. Luckily, just at the point where he demanded that I show him my (non-existent) stopwatch, Nick Zito told him to lay off - that maybe some people did come out for the workouts just for the love of horses and the sport.
I didn\'t know Nick - but that remark was much appreciated, and a good intro to the Florida scene and the value of the powers of observation!
CtC,
If only there had been more of you! Couldn\'t you have told a friend? If only you had made more effort I would have been spared toiling in this sweatshop. Believe me, the way Jerry treats Raggies is nothing compared to what he metes out in Varick St. What say you HP?
Anyway we didn\'t bother with workouts to start with because we knew they were a farce. Neither myself, Steve or anyone else on the RT could believe how important they were to Form readers.
But then again, they also liked their variants, too.
Cheers,
George
Thats Prozac kicking in man (ie See Phil Michelson)
Mandown,
I bought the Racing Times too. I would think the \"sweatshop\" conditions are much better now. I fared much worse. HP