I see there were some problems at the
opening of the Gulfstream Mall today
(see DRF online)
If I was religious, I would right now
be praying that Mr. Stronach will never
be given the opportunity to lay ruin
to Saratoga.
As for Wednesday, back to the inner
tube, an impossible card and a 48k p6
carryover.
Happy Wagering to all 2005
I knew the old strip at Hallandale but I did not like it. At first blush i\'m very pleased with the way the new surface behaved today and if it can be consistent i think its gonna be a great track. Now if they only had flamingos and a few other landmarks and memories they can never build or buy. I know there were problems but the Jockeys loved the track and thats the important thing. Did you notice in the feature how many horses were right there for second. They got to put their runs in. You gotta like that. I love Arlington and Saratoga due mainly to their size. Hialeah was the same way. Hollywood would be a good track but for the concrete they maintain there. GP is really positioned now with this surface and the extended meet to be the proving ground for the spring classics. I\'ll give Stronach credit for recognizing that real horseracing is fair horseracing. If he realizes that major stakes and handicaps should be 10 marks and up and makes the Gulfstream Park Handicap a 1 million 12 mark race, I\'ll back him for President. I\'m not sure you can run 12 marks there though.
I am going down to Hallendale on Saturday hoping for the best and expecting the worst. Hammerin Hank was hysterical on the radio yesterday blasting Stronach and Co. I have held back because people are trying to sell product and would be better served if this transition was as painless as possible.
The newspapers down here in So Fla were so full of puff on Sunday with their, It will be a unique experience stories\".
Also after reading Stronachs story in the DRF about how he designed the barns, stalls, mucked hay, etc I wondered if he cleaned up the Manure. Then it dawned on me that he probably ate it. Just like he does three meals a day.
CtC,
after reading all of the comments from the horsemen (zito, pletcher, tagg, frankel and others) it is obvious that stronach has created something special with the new courses. the jocks were also raving about the courses yesterday (the turf race was prob timed wrong). when this place is completed, it looks as though south florida will be the center of racing in this country (maybe the world). as for the mistakes yesterday, well they opened on a monday with a bunch of claimers for a reason: to get the bugs out. i hope everybody who has it in their minds that stronach has ruined racing will just stay away from GP this year. they don\'t want too many people there until things are built, leave the space to the people who appreciate world class race courses and world class racing.
>i hope everybody who has it in their minds that stronach has ruined racing will just stay away from GP this year.
No one said he has ruined racing, at least I haven\'t. He has made a lot of promises and he has delivered on how many in the last five years???
Also if they want people to stay away then open up Calder, Pompano and Hollywood dogs for that matter so people can go to a comfortable place and wager. Wonder why the resident \"Visionary\" didn\'t think of that.
See you at Palm Beach Kennel Michael D.
If Stronach really did design the facility maybe that explains why the Jockeys Room is a marathon from the Paddock. What was he thinking?...lol
Other than that I agree with Michael D. They\'ll work the bugs out.
I knew the corners and crevasses of Gulfstream. But it was an \"efficient\" structure and lacked romance. We\'ll see what they build. I still haven\'t seen a plan. The New York Tracks are a vastly different story. You don\'t do serious tinkering with Saratoga and Belmont.
SC,
it\'s the original post and the \"ruin\" comment i was referring to. post when you are heading to the PBKC. i will be there at least a few times in feb and march, let\'s meet up.
CtC,
i never liked the old GP. i first went there about twenty years ago, and i remember being very disappointed when i first walked in. i was expecting some sort of tropical paradise, and found a track that looked like most other old tracks in the country. the surface got bad reviews from many of the trainers (zito and shug included), and the foreigners hated it. with the nice winter climate, and great t\'bred interest in south florida, i could never understand why something different, something better wasn\'t built there. maybe that is why i am so glad that something is being done (maybe a bit too hopeful)... take a look at the GP web site for the future design.
Michael D said it looks like South Florida
will be the center of racing for the country and the world? I thought we have done just
fine with quality racing being held in 4
venues-- NY, KY, Fla and Cal over the past few years.
The majority of the year round equine population in Fla is still Calder claimers
and Florida bred maidens. There are enough
of these horses to fill a lot of large
fields which makes for good wagering. On
most weekdays even during the middle of
winter, we are seeing \"Calder at Gulfstream\".
Agreed, the weekend product is nearly equal
to Sara and Keeneland.
I read somewhere that Magna has already
mentioned that they want fall dates. This
sets up a potentially epic (sorry Tom
Durkin)battle between Magna and CD. Can they
co- exist better than the Donns and the
Brunettis?
With regards to the Spa, NYRA needs to go back to four or five weeks. I know the
ego driven Stronach would try to run a three
month carnival up there. My favorite year at
Saratoga was 1982. There had been weather
related cancellations during the winter and they ran 28 straight days, no dark days. That
year three classic winners-Gato, Aloma, and
Conquistador C- all met in the Travers. And the winner was-- Runaway Groom.
richie,
after all of the problems with the GP surface in the early and mid 90\'s, i though GP racing wasn\'t as good as it should be. fair enough though, we just disagree. we certainly agree on our love for the spa though. i will be the first to take on frank if he ever tries to change that place.
I go to Saratoga every year. I think it\'s a tad \'too\' popular now. I\'m not a big fan of the large weekend crowds and there no doubt in my mind that the quality of the racing has been watered down a bit as they\'ve expanded the meet. I\'ll still go again this year, but not with as much enthusiasm as I did 10 or more years ago.
richiebee wrote:
> The majority of the year round equine population in Fla is
> still Calder claimers
> and Florida bred maidens. There are enough
> of these horses to fill a lot of large
> fields which makes for good wagering. On
> most weekdays even during the middle of
> winter, we are seeing \"Calder at Gulfstream\".
> Agreed, the weekend product is nearly equal
> to Sara and Keeneland.
Calder at Gulfstream is not all bad. I really can\'t even begin to recite the number of big tickets I\'ve cashed on big name Northern horses going down on Calder or Gulfstream during the winter. Especially Calder. They call the Spa \"The graveyard of favorites\", they must have never have covered the \"big\" races on Calder\'s main during the winter.
lol
CtC
I\'ve been going to the SPA every year as well, especially enjoy the last weekend (Labor Day). Get away weekend is more laid back, usually has many good prices and overlays, as well as reasonable crowd size to deal with, after the Travers euphoria is over. IMO its easier to concentrate and handicap that week with horses showing form, trainers trying to get out and certain handicappers trying to get their money back. I have to say that this year using TG I had a remarkable last Sunday this year including Samyn in the 11th!!
Keeneland is AWSOME as well.
Yep. I\'ve also been going during the last weekend for the last several years now. It is a little better.
Michael D. wrote:
> CtC,
> i never liked the old GP. with the nice
> winter climate, and great t\'bred interest in south florida, i
> could never understand why something different, something
> better wasn\'t built there.
I think the history of racing in Florida is why. At the time GP was first built the preeminent track was Hialeah. Nothing was going to dislodge Hialeah\'s hold on the quality racing season. So they built \"cheap\" like Calder and Tropical Park. Then, Hialeah and Miami kind of deteriorated and folks with money migrated a little further North. Not all, but a good many of them. Hialeah became in the words of the \"assign the dates folks\" \"hard to get to\". I think the folks at GP did a better job lobbying the state government for the cream winter dates. Ostensibly, the state people looked at handle generated but quite quickly in the process of awarding the dates Hialeah wasn\'t given a chance for the cream dates again. (How do you demonstrate handle without a chance at the handle dates?...lol) Brunetti exacerbated things by butting heads with the state officials, going head to head on dates and increasing takeout.
Of course in this era, most handle is generated off track, so the old arguements don\'t hold water any longer, but Brunetti kind of burned his bridges is my take on it. Its too bad, other than Saratoga nothing compared and NO surface was Hialeah\'s equal. (You know they grew beans on the main it in the off season and tilled them into the track. At least thats what I was told). It\'s not like Calder and GP are in the BEST neighborhoods. They most certainly are NOT.
CtC
Count me in for a meet at the PBKC.
I heard you frequented the place from another Thorograph Poster--Catalin. He owns the place. They have my info at the TG office, give them yours and we will hook up.
Back to Stronach, I was one his biggest supporters when he first began buying tracks. \"My attitude was give him a chance, he has new ideas, lets see what happens.\"
I call it like I see it, if you haven\'t been able to tell already. Stronach needs to start doing what the racing fans want not what HE thinks the racing fans want.
sounds good SC....
i wish i was down in the area now. 80 degrees and sunny for the rest of the week, and a great card scheduled for saturday. i hope to be around in feb, i will let you know.
My fear with Stronach vis a vis NYRA
is that racing in NY is currently a
political football, with OTB on the
ropes and Spitzer, the wannabe gov,
making a pinata out of NYRA.
Frnk Stro seemed to have no impact
in Maryland, another state where
racing is now a political issue.
From all reports, racing in MD
is nearly extinct.
If NYRA loses the franchise in 07,
I would rather see the twin spires
people get it, even though it would
take some chutzpah to display their
ever present logo at New York tracks.
At least they have a century of
experience running racing, as opposed
to the auto parts guy. i take nothing away
from him as a brilliant breeder/owner.
>i take nothing away from him as a brilliant breeder/owner.
In this field he is kicking everyones tale.
Totally agree with you.
He\'s had some good ones: Awesome Again, Macho Uno, Ghostzapper. The question that arises is \"How much is good breeding, how much is something else.\" Awesome Again is the real deal and looks to be his foundation for the time being. That and auto millions...lol
CtC
Touch Gold is no bum either and did I hear someone say Wild Rush or no maybe it was El Prado.
YOU obviously get the point and join us at the PBKC.
It\'s a crying shame about Hialeah. Absolutely beautiful. I wouldn\'t get out of my car in the area around Calder. That\'s a dangerous neighborhood. I\'d rather go to Hialeah anyday. HP
Silver Charm wrote:
> I call it like I see it, if you haven\'t been able to tell
> already. Stronach needs to start doing what the racing fans
> want not what HE thinks the racing fans want.
I had a brief correspondence with Frank Stronach\'s office. It pertained to problems with Xpressbet, but thats all I want to say about that. I got the distinct impression that like a political party\'s elected candidate he has \"gotten away for his base\". I really think he sees himself as a visionary capable of expanding the game he loves, but also willing to make concessions to \"grow the game\". I wish him luck, only time will tell, but I don\'t want him making serious inroads upon the games true backers and traditions. The New York facilities are a big part of that.
For what it\'s worth-and it\'s not worth much- I had a bit of a conversation with Mr. Stronach and his son Andy about their vision for racetracks one day at Santa Anita a few years ago. And I came away with this impression: Mr Stronach is at least willing to listen to people, but Andy is convinced he has all the answers.
And basically their perspective is that people attend races for entertainment. Taking care of the needs of serious horseplayers by investing in information delivery systems is not a high priority to them because they don\'t believe that the demographic is large enough to make such expenditures cost effective.
In fact, I got the distinct impression they felt serious horseplayers were pretty much a captive audience and therefore a constant regardless how they were treated.
On the other hand Mr. Stronach really does love horses and the sporting aspects of horse racing. He really does think that racing is such a wonderful sport that it will sell itself. All he has to do is provide facilities that the populace will feel comfortable coming to, or better yet have other reasons like retail shopping to induce their attendance, and the inherent
beauty of racing will have them coming back for more.
My take, of course, is that it is the serious horseplayer who creates the energy the race track experience thrives on. Celebrate handicapping, honor information, and the energy created by horseplayers will
make the track a happening place to be.
Of course, I don\'t feel that my vision and the Stronach\'s vision are mutually exclusive. But Andy didn\'t even want to grant me that.
So, Andy and I didn\'t exactly hit it off. But I did like Mr. Stronach. And am inclined to give him credit for everything that goes right, and blame Andy for everything that goes wrong.
Post Edited (01-05-05 15:25)
Meanwhile, it is interesting to note that Magna has done a 180 degree reversal of their way of doing business in the last 3 weeks. Before, they were taking a screw-everyone approach (which included us on the rebate deal, which was THEIR idea, although they pretended it was a surprise to them when Hegarty went after them). Now, they have gone from giving no one their signal to doing deals with everyone in sight ( announced Pha phone bet today), went partners with Churchill (!!) on selling the signals to foreign countries, and joined up with CD and others in the \"Friends of NY Racing\" venture (Orwell would love that one).
As Grace Slick said at Woodstock, it\'s a new dawn. Stay tuned.
Last I heard Andy had split off on his own, and has nothing to do with his father\'s empire, although he may end up running it in the end. I have had several smart people tell me he is a very bright guy who comes across as not that way when you first meet him. He approached us at one point about using our data in a kind of racing game that could be placed in bars-- there were several problems both with the idea and our participation, and as far as I know it never went anywhere. He does know a number of people who are very serious bettors, some of them TG, and I would be surprised if he still took that view of the industry.
The biggest problem with Magna, (aside from the bad attitude, which seems to have changed), is that they have hired very few people who know anything about racing, and they are extremely reluctant to give more than a one year contract to anyone, which severely limits their ability to get anyone good. Hence the musical chairs with management. It will be very interesting to see where they and the rest of the industry go this year.
JB
In all fairness I substituted the phrase \"captive audience\" for degenerate in my previous post because certainly neither of the Stronachs said anything derogatory about horseplayers to me.
What I do remember about the conversation was how resistant Andy was to the idea that spending money on improving information for the serious horseplayer was a good investment.
But I also want to say that I don\'t think one has to be a big bettor to be a serious horseplayer. This is a mistake I think a lot of industry people make including the NTRA made with their Player\'s Panel last year.
A serious horseplayer is a guy who studies the game, and goes out to the race track (or bets on line) as often as he can. He might, or might not wager a lot of money, but whatever he bets is based upon studying his past performances with some intensity. This guy is by nature a puzzle solver; the access to and reliability of information being the lifeblood of his racing experience. This is what I mean by a serious horseplayer, one who takes handicapping seriously. And always the hope is that the serious player of today will be the big bettor of tomorrow.
Post Edited (01-05-05 16:29)
>What I do remember about the conversation was how resistant Andy was to the idea that spending money on improving information for the serious horseplayer was a good investment.<
Unfortunately he may actually be right.
Your points about serious players wanting information are certainly correct.
However, I don\'t think information availablity was ever an issue for me in whether or not I was attracted to the game and I was serious $2 better at one time. :-)
At some level I would prefer that there was less information out there. I would be more than willing to compile some of it myself if it was cost effective. These days you can get high quality speed figures for free in the DRF (assuming you know what goes into them and how to use them properly) and all kinds of supplemental pace, trip, bias, and trainer info for next to nothing per day.
If you are willing to pay more you can get even more (TG).
I think what is really needed is education on how to use the information and how to bet profitably (how to think). That\'s how you maximize the chances of more serious players (regardless of whether they bet big or not) winning or at least getting close. If you are at least getting close, it encourages you to keep playing and trying. If you have loads of information and are still playing 4-5 shots with a 50% chance of winning you are screwed and will eventually quit even if you know a lot and have a lot of info.
The real problem is the pace and difficulty of the game relative to others. It is very slow and tough . I can get more action in 15 minutes on the poker table than I can get in a weekend at the track. Both appeal to mathematically oriented puzzle solvers etc... and unfortunately for horseracing, poker is much easier to win at. It took me many years to be able to produce fairly consistent profits at the track. It took me a few months at poker.
IMHO, we need WAY fewer racetracks. They are often a monumental waste of good real estate and are very cost ineffective. Only a handful in the country make sense. They should have their signals sent everywhere else to simulcast outlets and online betting sites. Then the take could be reduced dramatically and give more players a shot at winning. The politics of it are a problem, but that\'s to be expected. Politicians are one notch above being intrinsically evil. It could be worked out eventually.
The weekends leading up to the Alabama are always fine as far as crowds are concerned. I think a lot also depends on the weather. It will be interesting to see how much (if any) money Stronach has contributed to Elliot Spitzer\'s war chest. If it is significant I would be very suspicious of its relationship to the bad press NYRA got recenlty thanks to Spitzer. Does anyone really think that jockey\'s possibly riding overwieght is an issue that would be addressed by the NY attorney general if he was not running for governor and the NYRA franchise wasn\'t up in a couple of years.
I don\'t think the Jockey overweight thing has \"legs\". They\'ll catch the couple individuals involved and discipline them. Self interest will always lead some to bend the rules, whether they are jockeys or national guardsmen flying obsolete jets.
I\'m not certain P.Snort is gonna get a chance at that Stakes Victory Party. One of the Stewards that has it in for him moved up to the CHRB. What PVal needs to do is seek higher office. Snorting is not held in the same disregard in some lines of work.
The Fu\'s are experiencing a little early Triple Crown Prep problem finding a race. Apparently Drysdale wanted to \"turn back\" FuSham after his strenuous 6.5 mark maiden romp. His target was the 6 mark San Miguel, but he says rains have interfered with training so that race is out. Theres a big difference between maidens and winners, especially horses that have been knocking stakes head. Does Drysdale seem worried to you? He does to me. FuMan Ruler seems to be exhibiting the typical \"Prospector\" ouchy issues. He returned from a work sore and also is out of the stamina evaluating San Miguel. The FuPig I like best is Killenaule. He rated behind in the \"Storm Cat\" and finished with good energy to win by five. He\'s been beat by Rockport Harbor, but that one may be the top young horse just now.
Post Edited (01-06-05 08:36)
stronach\'s new laurel track is open:
trainer lisa jimenez: \"it\'s spectacular. it looks like belmont, it it so wide. there were so many naysayers but they hung in there and got it done right.\"
trainer ferris allen: \"it was a very expensive project and at the end of the day it is going to be first-class.\"
trainer carlos garcia: \"it is beautiful. i just saw a horse work and there was no kick-back. it is a good bouncy track. previously it wouldn\'t have been this good. my horses were eager to go and my excercise riders said the horses liked it.\"
i have never focused on laurel, but i think i will when they open on jan 22.
Interesting what you say Michael D, this comment is also from the same story:
\"All of us at Magna Entertainment and the Maryland Jockey Club would like to thank the Maryland racing community for their patience,\"said Jim Gagliano, executive vice president of Maryland Racing Operations.
Gagliano\'s comment about fans being patient should be repeated by his senior level boss. Promise the world but tell everyone its going to TAKE TIME and THEN DELIVER.
The thing that is most interesting from your comments are you said you will start playing the track because of the condition of the Racing Surface. Not because of the band, the combo group, the movie theater, the shopping mall, ferris wheel or roller coaster.
The Old Terrace restaurant at Gulfstream used to remain open after the races with a band and a bar and a nice crowd. However there were probably 5 times as many people inside doing nothing but betting on races.
Do the people who run these tracks ever see this and consider what they can do for them.
SC,
the two most important promises stronach ever made have now been delivered. the true horsemen at GP and Lrl are now finding this out. good betting opportunities follow great racing..... as for the shopping mall comments, where are the shopping malls? go to the GP site, and tell me if that future site looks like a shopping mall. if you think it does, then don\'t bother going. i am not directing this towards you, SC, but the people who have said that stronach will turn some of today\'s top tracks into shopping malls have been proven wrong. it\'s time you stop, admit you were wrong, and go away. stronach\'s tracks will offer great racing, great betting opportunities, and will be packed with fans once they are completed.
CtC,
i am with you, i never liked FuPeg all that much, but the horse got a great book of mares. i think two of the young ones have a chance of being something special. check out the pedigrees on bandini and andromeda\'s hero.
Michael, here\'s hoping Laurel is worth doing. In the past, it\'s been very short fields, with very short-priced juice trainers. Without slots, the latest concern is losing starters to W.Va. because of the purses they offer. It has also been difficult to get their signal. raz
Well I just did a post that was actually
on racing only, but now you have
me going on Stronach again.
Here\'s what makes me as suspicious of
him as all you guys are of the on track
medicine men. He is considering developing,
at this time, racetrack/ retail centers
in Romulus, MI and near Sacramento,CA.
He plans on making Gulfstream a multi-
purpose (racing/retail/entertainment)
center. (Now tell me, is there room for a nine hole executive course in the infield?)
Frank Stro is a brilliant businessman and
he is hedging his bets; if the tracks
tank, he can roll right ahead with retail
ventures.
I am 50 years old and very enamored with
the history and tradition of racing, almost
as much as I am with trying to find a
winning bet. Racing, because of all the
breeding angles, because of the relative
longevity of jockeys and trainers, always
seems to relate back to the past in ways that other spectator sports do not. Certain
venues (you guys know I\'m talking NYRA
now, and Keeneland)should be improved,
but not radically changed. Frank Stro
seems to favor new surfaces, new structures.
As far as racing is concerned, Belmont,
Keeneland and Saratoga are historic
places which need to be administered with an eye towards the past as well as the future.
And once again, just so all know that
I am willing to give credit where credit
is due, no commercial breeder has ever
been on the kind of roll that Frank/
Adena Springs is on now.
Post Edited (01-10-05 02:31)
I can\'t find any info on the Laurel Track. Did they lengthen it as well?
You hit the continuity nail right on the head richibee. That was well put.
CtC
Post Edited (01-09-05 21:49)
richie,
nobody cares how old you are, and nobody cares how enamored you are of anything... where are the shopping malls????? the real horsemen love GP, and the real horsemen love the new Lrl surface. save your rambling posts, and just tell us what you don\'t like about stronach\'s tracks??? i am from upstate ny, and have been going to the spa for 25 straight years. who cares??? i was just at Kee for two straight weeks. who cares??? we all love the tradition of racing. everybody cares!!! the great tradition isn\'t going away. just tell me why stronach has made racing at GP or Lrl worse than it was before. if you can\'t, just go away. if you can tell me exactly why stronach has ruined the tradition of racing, please go ahead.
>The Old Terrace restaurant at Gulfstream used to remain open after the races with a band and a bar and a nice crowd. However there were probably 5 times as many people inside doing nothing but betting on races.
>Do the people who run these tracks ever see this and consider what they can do for them.
I will repeat my comment just for the sake of remnding people what about us.
As far as the shopping mall goes, wasn\'t Santa Anita going to be linked by walkway to a Mall. (And I\'m not talking about the one who posts on this Board. Good Luck in th Vegas contest by the way)
Maybe before Frank went on the aggressive roll-up he should have seen some of his visions through to completion with at least one track then people would have an easier
time listening and believing where he is going with all this.
So far things some things look ok, if he doesn\'t RUN OUT OF CASH halfway through.
Michael:
I work nights. It allows me to play
golf and go to the races. What are you
doing awake at 2:43AM?
Frank Stro can buy as many racetracks
as he wants. He possibly will save racing
in some states (I hope Maryland)and try
to revive it in states where it will
likely fail (Michigan). As to what he
does with these tracks-- since it is
his money, whatever he wants.
But Michael, rock concerts DURING the
races? Bimbo, pom pom waving cheer-
leaders DURING the races? His approach
may work in some venues, but keep him
away from tracks where tradition and
history are important.
And, by the way, do you think any
of the horsemen who rely on Magna
for stall space so they can live are
going to say anything negative about
the surfaces or facilities?
Concerts DURING the races are a good idea. They do this at Belmont. Perfect for families. When they get bored you park them in front of the music for awhile -- and dad can squeeze in a few more races and everyone is happy. If you have the room, why not capitalize on it? It does not hurt any of the \"tradition\" as far as I can see. I am not the kind of \"fan\" this kind of thing will sway one way or another, but I think this is generally a positive since it shows that the management/promo dept. of the track is thinking of SOMETHING to earn their money. It may actually get a few more folks out to the track... You\'d be surprised. HP
richie,
i don\'t think it matters, but i have to watch the asian markets for the first few days of every week....... just do this for me richie, wait until GP is finished, then come back on this board and compare it to the old one. i would ask everybody interested in the matter to do the same. Lrl has been a dump for years, and the old GP wasn\'t anything special. it\'s hard for me to believe that so many people are attacking stronach for the good work he has started to do on these tracks.
I wish Stronach would buy Atlantic City Racecourse; beautiful 9F main track and one of the best 1 mile turf courses ever built. It \'s a shame to see it wasting away!
Hialeah and Atlantic City both very nice facilities. Hialeah was an awesome
building with very good sight lines.
But who remembers Bob Brennan\'s
Garden State Park? This was a beautiful
facility, a monument to what a man could
do when he had a seemingly endless
supply of other peoples\' money.
Unfortunately, Brennan tried to open his
track in the mid 1980s when there were
already 3 struggling tracks within an
hour or so from Cherry Hill-- AC, Philly
Park (then Keystone) and pre- slots
Delaware.