A weighty matter?
http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/todaysnews/newsview.asp?recno=51543&subsec=1
Weight scams?..........hmmmmm
Where are the State Authorities when the horses are being doped in their stalls?
I wonder how much weight you can cheat off? The jocks weigh about 115. Maybe 7 pounds? I mean its cheating, but is this the major issue?
CtC
Post Edited (12-15-04 21:50)
From my perspective, if true, this would be worse than any doping scandal.
First it would be a more institutionalized form of cheating in that track employees would be in on the scam.
And secondly, it doesn\'t give the horseplayer a chance. If I remember correctly you once wrote a statement I agree with completely, something to the effect that a shrewd handicapper can make some money by figuring out when the trainers might be cheating. I certainly think you can figure out when a trainer is going to be asking for a maximum effort from his horse, and quite simply, if doping, they are going to be doping in s a fresh horse who is capable of giving a maximum effort rather than one way off it form cycle. Which means that to some degree doping can be anticipated and factored into one\'s handicapping.
But cheating on weights not only leaves the handicapper processing wrong information, but pretty much undermines the logic of the entire enterprise, since weight allocation has been the the equalizing foundation of racing, since the scale of weights was introduced.
And, of course, it begs the question, \"How long has this been going on?\" And if in New York why not everywhere else?
So, it strikes me that in scale and scope this scandal could have some severe long term negative ramifications for the industry. And in fact, makes my knees buckle in a way that a doped horse, or a fixed race never could. In that this seems almost unbelievable to me.
Addendum: According the the NY Post this scandal involves letting overweight jockeys ride. Huh???
\"This investigation involves the integrity of the races themselves,\" a law enforcement official told the Post.\"
....The new investigation involves claims that NYRA officials looked the other way when overweight jockeys showed up their mounts.
....Racehorses are normally assigned a maximum carryweight (huh? I thought it was a minimum weight) which has a vital bearing on the betting.
If a jockey can\'t make the weight, the NYRA should not allow him to ride and demand that a replacement be found.
Well, I thought the scandal would involve horses carrying less weight than they were assigned but this article, by-lined by Fred Dicker in Albany and the Post regular racing writer Ed Fountaine in NY seems to indicate the reverse was true. Horses were carrying more weight than they were assigned.
But doesn\'t this happen every day? Aren\'t horse announced as overweight every day at every track in America? Maybe I don\'t understand the concept of \"maximum weight\" that is being violated, but I\'m having a hard time grasping the \"why\" of this story.
Why didn\'t the jockey\'s just get announced as being overweight?
Post Edited (12-16-04 09:42)
Don\'t get me wrong, I believe it should be looked into. There really would have to be quite a little conspiracy for this weight thing to work out.
I don\'t know. I\'m not into cheating. I\'ve never known of a rigged race and wouldn\'t participate if I did. You can go to jail. Handicappers can\'t cheat, but trainers can.
I just can\'t imagine what kind of devious mind fixes a race 5-7 pounds at a time. I don\'t find that persuasive enough to wager the mob money. Is this an inside thing, so fat jockeys can ride without anyone knowing they couldn\'t make weight?
If I\'m gonna fix a race. I\'m doing it right. I\'m getting a good horse and I\'m entering him in a New York Grade I Stakes and I\'m hiring Bobby Frankel. This 5-7 pounds at a time thing is for amateurs. Hey!!!!!!!!! You New York Cops. I know a real crook in this game.
CtC
Post Edited (12-16-04 09:36)
Roughly 15 years ago a similar story broke at Philly park-- and it wasn\'t like you couldn\'t figure it out, because certain guys (I think Brandon Simpson, a leading bug, was one) were making weight at Philly (like 108), then coming in overweight (like 113) that night at the Meadowlands. Somebody finally made a stink, the clerk of scales at Philly resigned and left for a track in the Midwest, and a week later Simpson took his tack to the same track.
I would be surprised if this turns out to be anything significant at NYRA-- more likely Spitzer and the Canadian\'s minions stirring the pot. But you never know.
Wasn\'t there a story that this was going on at Arlington Park last year?
Interesting,
I don\'t remember the Brandon Simpson episode. (Rarely bet Philly now, prolly never did then.) Something along those lines would explain it. A little kick back deal for the clerk of scales for misreading the dial.
http://sports.excite.com/news/12162004/v2391.html
Post Edited (12-16-04 22:54)
The real kickback involved here will be if & when Stronach contributes mightily to Spitzer\'s Gov run. Don\'t get me wrong - if NYRA is not properly announcing overweights they need to get to the bottom of this but something smells here in my estimation.
The weight issue is meaningful but not within lenghts of Blood Dope, Milk Shakes, et al IMO. I\'ll trade the weight issue any day for a good all out look at illegal performance enhancing drugs.
Agree wholeheartedly.
You know, it occurred to me yesterday that it is possible that there is something to this-- now that they raised the scale of weights in NY a few pounds, there are more situations where a guy could be supposed to carry 5-10 pounds of lead. Hmmm...
Boy, would I have to change a lot of figures.
two,
franks\'s daughter might be the conservative PM of canada in a few years. can\'t see him contributing to spitzer\'s run....
Post Edited (12-17-04 14:03)
Michael - I know... Conservative Party in Canada isn\'t far from our Democrat Party in many ways. She\'s also very close to both Clinton\'s. Just a thought. We\'ll watch and see.
Mark
If this scandal involves letting horses run with less than their assigned weight than it should be a major scandal. It undermines the very foundation of racing, and yes, calls the legitimacy of any and all weight influenced figures into play.
But where\'s the \"edge\" to not reporting overweights?
Certainly there is no race day advantage to any overweight entry.
And while I can see how knowing one horse is carrying more than assigned weight might give a bettor a big advantage in a match race, I think the fuller the field the less advantage there is to \"knowing\" this information at the expense of the public. At least, it doesn\'t seem like enough of an advantage for a clerk of scale to risk his cushy job for.
As far as looking the other way to help the jockey out, that a jockey can\'t make weight doesn\'t seem like information than can be kept secret for very long.
So, on one level it almost seems like the only reason for not reporting \"overweights\" is that there might be too much paperwork to fill out.
And although, my whole vision for growing the racing industry can be summed up the the phrase, \"Honor Informatin,\" I was beginning to think this was much ado about nothing. I thought it was wrong, but it struck me as being careless wrong rather than crafty wrong. I just couldn\'t figure out the \"edge\" for the sharks, the chum for the chums.
But then I saw it (Sea Hunt theme here): I\'m a weight off guy. I like weight off a horse. Is this what is going on? Are horses knowingly being raced overweight today, so that next week they\'ll get \"invisible\" weight off courtesy of a properly weighted jockey?
Well, now we\'re back to a true \"scandal\" again. For if this is the case, one has to assume that the trainers and owners are complicit in this too.
To those who would argue, that\'s it\'s only weight and how much difference can a few pounds make, I would think the answer is self-evident. Obviously a lot, or they wouldn\'t be going through all this trouble.
Post Edited (12-18-04 09:05)
If something is going on (a big if), I think it\'s much more likely that some trainer has got himself in a situation where his horses are getting something like a 5 pound weight pull on a regular basis. In the long run that would give him a big edge.
TGJB
I think there is a big IF to this scandal also.
By getting a five pound pull, do you mean you think some trainer is getting five pounds left out of the saddle bag on a regular basis?
If that\'s the case I might start rethinking my position on the death penalty. Right now I only believe in it for littering and double parking in front of open spaces.
Post Edited (12-18-04 09:03)
Yeah, that\'s what I mean, something like that. It couldn\'t be too widespread, I would think, because it would get out.
On the other hand, apparently it DID get out. Maybe.
Thing is, I don\'t know what good checking the records would do. You would have to think whoever did it would not be stupid enough to keep records.
I agree records should be hard to find if this is a \"weight off\" issue...lol
I can\'t find anymore on it and the reports I found last night indicated it was about the public not being informed of overweights, so for the time being I\'ll assume thats what it is. Trainers like five pounds off. So I\'m inclined to think its a jockey or two going to the clerk of the scales and saying \"Hey, put me down for 112 pounds and when I win at that weight you got 25% of my purse portion.\"
I can\'t see a trainer going for a clerk of scales deal for five pounds all the time. I believe that weight matters and I could see a long term benefit, but, theres too much of a trail too. The Clerk, whoever puts the lead bars in the saddle. (Is it the clerk. I really don\'t know...lol) All the jockeys, (They hold their saddle and weigh in post race.) To me theres not enough deniability.
Its not like with testing postives, though I know theres a certain amount of \"strict liability\":
\"My horse? It wasn\'t me!!! No one saw!!!! I wasn\'t there!!! You sure you got that reading right? ReTest! Maybe we administered a little too much. That Vet Sucks. Couldnt be. Someone got to my horse!!!\"
CtC
Possibly bettors can sueif fraud proven!!! http://www.nypost.com/news/regionalnews/36606.htm