Can anyone come up with 10 mark plus grade I winners from this horse beyond the few I\'m about to mention?
Storm Flag Flying
Good Reward
Cat Thief
Tabasco Cat
The first two are Phipps horses the latter Overbrook Farm horses. All were solid on the mare side in my opinion.
This little inquiry is related to FuSham\'s pedigree. I didn\'t like his sire\'s pedigree, but his dam was an unaccomplished full to Pine Bluff. This time around with FuSham, I really can\'t see any long wind on the dam side without going back four generations.
I know, I know, we\'ll tell by how he handles two turns and 9 marks, but you know what? I don\'t think we\'ll need to wait that long. FuPig was debatable, but this pedigree is almost a joke.
CtC
forget SSF, that 10f race collapsed completely. she never proved to be a top quality 10f horse. aside from the others you mentioned, the only other top quality 10f SC horse that i can remember is Tabor\'s brilliant animal that battled Tiznow in the BC a few years ago. he was also out of a brilliant female family though, loaded with stamina influences. no doubt, ctc, the storm cat line has 10f stamina issues (but wow!, FuSam can run. he will be fun to watch as long as he does go).
Giants Causeway, me thinks
yes indeed, couldn\'t think of his name. i had tiz at 9-1 that day, it\'s not fair of me to forget the name of the horse who put up such a great battle.
I bet Giants Causeway and lost a lot in that race. Guess the losers can sometimes be more memorable than the winners. By the way, Storm Cat was the sire of November Snow who won the 10 panel Alabama (but she was out of a Alydar mare and trained by H. Allen Jerkens who is uniquely skilled at getting females to go from short to long -- didn\'t he just sweep the test and the Alabama again this year?)
I meant the losers can be more memorable to the people who bet them.
yea, november snow caught a sloppy track for her alabama win, and only raced against four or five horses that day (i think, could be wrong). \'snow did often flatten out though when running the longer races. if i remember correctly, i think she flattened out in a longer race down in fla in her race before the test. that is why some of us were able to get about 4-1 on her in the test, when she was much the best (in my opinion). she also flattened out in the big summer race at mth going 9f (molly pitcher i think), and she was odds on that day. i have always thought the sloppy track carried her along the day she won the alabama.
And, Jerkens a lot of times has ended up making astute shoe decisions when the track ends up coming up goo. I am not sure if November Snow was wearing mud caulks in the Alabama but it is possible given Jerkens\' tendencies.
I have seen that Saratoga strip respond in a way where you can throw out everything (and I mean everything) and just handicap off the shoe board. One of those days was a Travers day in the mid to late 1980s. I do not remember now which year, but I know for a fact you could have had the Travers trifecta just by boxing the horses wearing mud caulks (and, if they had been offering superfecta betting, you would have hit that too and there were only 4 horses in the race wearing mud caulks). The thing that was crazy was that it was very clear very early on that any horse wearing mud caulks would beat horses that were not, yet the bettors did not seem to pick up on it. The prices in the Travers where very generous in light of that (one thing that may have thrown off the crowd was that there were a fair amount of turf races that stayed on the turf course and the cleats were not an asset in the bog as opposed to the goo).
soco2,
yea, my father was all over society selection in the test and alabama this year, pointing to the exact reasons you do: jerkens and his uncanny ability to prepare horses for certain conditions. i think i bet yearly report in the alabama, cost me big time at the windows (as well as a dinner with my father).
SoCalMan2 wrote:
> I meant the losers can be more memorable to the people who bet
> them.
>
Thank You,
I don\'t remember November Snow. I don\'t know why. Pedigreequery.com doesnt list her career accomplishments, but I\'ll take your word for it. I do remember the name.
Giant\'s Causeway is a Storm Cat. He may have been the most consistent and accomplished of the Storm Cat bunch (Tabasco would debate that) and his dam side pedigree was notable in a few ways. Rahy has gotten some good fillies and Causeway\'s dam was Mariah Storm and she could really run up to 9 marks. Three generations back the breeding is notable. Glorious Song, (Full to Devils Bag and Saint Ballado), Roberto, Blushing Groom. Causeway\'s pedigree is much better than FuSham\'s in my opinion.
I\'m betting agains FuSham every race from here forward. His dad made a clown out of me, even though he really did have limitations and was a Pig, it can\'t happen again. Mr. Prospector 2 x 3? Comeon.
CtC
Post Edited (12-13-04 18:42)
Nebraska Tornado won the french oaks which is a G1 over 10.5f at 3yo.
hmmm,
Willow Hour?
I seem to remember that one running in slop.
PE,
yes, correct. i was trying to think of a few euro\'s. nebraska showed speed in the BC, then stopped. the race in europe was a big one though. she also had a ton of distance blood on the bottom.
I\'ve never understood the fascination with Storm Cat.
Thru 2003 AWD among 186 stakes wins: 7.67f, skewed to a certain extent by the precocity of his offspring. Only 2.7% have been Classic winners 10f+. As a broodmare sire, nada.
Not sure what kind Hennessy would have been, retired early. High Yield injured in the Derby if memory serves.
Vision and Verse was a fair runner, Newfoundland is okay, not sure if either actually won a GI at 10 marks. The few exceptions don\'t prove much. My gaawwd, Glitterman has a Graded Stakes winner at 12 panels, lol.
I\'ve been told that in addition to the possibility of getting a good 2 yr old, a major reason so many people are willing to pay so much for SC\'s offspring is that he is considered a \"sire of sires.\" I don\'t remember how old SC is, but I\'ve also heard that he wasn\'t able to fill his book last yr until very late in the breeding season, which might be the 1st sign that his days as a foundation sire at Overbrook can start to be numbered.
www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/media/pdf/stormcat.pdf
Since you were talking about it
NoCarolinaTony wrote:
> www.thoroughbredtimes.com/isd/media/pdf/stormcat.pdf
>
> Since you were talking about it
Thx Tony, whats interesting is TTimes doesn\'t list Tabasco Cat as one of his leading runners. I mean he may be his BEST. What gives? They also are listing career best Rags numbers. Maybe Rags paid them for the advertising and theres no stud fees to be garnered for Tabasco Cat cuz he went to Japan and Died. Sheez, Monetary decisions.
CtC
Post Edited (12-16-04 20:33)
I was beginning to think your days were numbered since it had been so long since you last posted. Gearing for the Vegas handicapping contest I guess.
If you are a fact and figure trivia nut like me this site is a good source of Breeders Cup history.
http://www.ntra.com/bc2004/bc_event_index.asp
Storm Cat ran second in the second BC Juvenile, held at Aqueduct (1985). So that puts Storm Cat a soon to be 22 year-old. His problems are nothing that a little Viagra wouldn\'t take care of.
Right Mall
Silver,
Thanks for the info- yes Im a History nut ans stats geek, thats probably why I like TG as much as I do(besides the data being very good). Been very busy at work as our business was sold and we have new owners to deal with.
Had a VG weekend this past one.Cha Ching.
Tony