https://www.paulickreport.com/news/the-biz/west-virginia-officials-awaiting-split-sample-results-on-georgina-baxter-trained-charles-town-oaks-winner/?fbclid=IwAR2tFrmoQ3XKIgFcgMVdTkLGVOg4p0gUi1ZuZMjmXFQmiiNegdje5rSbLy4
Nice beard
Not that I particularly want to reopen this subject, but Clenbuterol is a way bigger deal than the nonsense positive that Baffert got. It’s a bronchodilator, and it has steroidal effectsâ€" a true performance enhancer.
TGJB Wrote:
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> Not that I particularly want to reopen this subject
But you did.
So - What punishment should Baffert have received for those seven deaths in a short amount of time, deaths of horses that were receiving a medicine/drug/supplement/whatever that he routinely gave all his horses for no obvious good reason?
Every time I have talked about this I’ve made clear I’m talking about this positive only.
hellersorr Wrote:
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> TGJB Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Not that I particularly want to reopen this
> subject
>
> But you did.
>
> So - What punishment should Baffert have received
> for those seven deaths in a short amount of time,
> deaths of horses that were receiving a
> medicine/drug/supplement/whatever that he
> routinely gave all his horses for no obvious good
> reason?
At least one person still asks that question... . He is fortunate he decided to train in California. Untouchable. For some unknown reason. Odds he will remain the trainer of the 2021 Kentucky Derby winner? Unbelievable.
As was the case with Jerry Hollendorfer, it doesn\'t seem these tracks are taking these actions based on a single infraction.
They likely know way more than we do..and are doing things based on what was likely going on for years.
Hopefully it all comes out one day in black and white so we don\'t have to assume but this is clearly not just about Baffert\'s derby positive. And to assert that it is just seems silly to me.
No, they do not know more. I base that on the conversation where they asked my opinionâ€" after they had already acted.
https://www.drf.com/news/jordan-fishman-pleads-guilty-drug-adulteration-and-misbranding-conspiracy
In one wiretapped conversation produced by government prosecutors in the indictment, Jordan Fishman told Navarro that he had “hundreds of products†and that most of them were “untestable,†meaning that they would not return positives in post-race drug tests. (Some regulators have contended that some of the substances marketed by MediVet would not return positive tests because they did not contain prohibited ingredients.) Fishman also told Navarro that he could create “customized†substances
I guess the way these stories are coming out day after day, hour after hour, you either have to believe the game is beyond any repair or they are really trying to Clean things up ...or maybe you can believe both and that is too late. I\'m not sure where I stand to be honest at the moment. However, the more I read about \"untestable\" and \"nothing will come out\" after a blood test, the more and more I\'m convinced that Beta has very, very little to do with the Derby winner. A beta positive as I\'ve mentioned in detail before is likely a result of similar molecule makeups in other substances. . . . . .but that\'s just my opinion.
___________________________________________
Crichton should sue NYRA and Keeneland like Baffert to make the stakes entries go. It just wouldn\'t be right for him to not run his filly. (Sarcasm for those that need clarification)
https://www.drf.com/news/trainers-sanctioned-gulfstream-drop-out-nyra-races
Zulueta says you shouldn\'t win too much or you will end up in prison.
https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/zulueta-joins-growing-list-of-plea-changers-in-doping-case/
Absolutely shocked on this story. He was always a straight shooter I thought. (Sarcasm for those that need clarification)
https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/third-class-4-drug-complaint-issued-against-miller-this-year/
What\'s interesting to me is that two of the three overages were detected after workouts (not races) at a training center.
But didn\'t we read that SGF 1000 tests like dexamethasone, which Baffert has had problems with, with several runners? Claiming it was a result of improper use of an ointment? Or use by a groom who was handling one of his runners?
Am I misreading this?
Confused,
I left this alone for a day or so and I see you got *(crickets)* for an answer to your question. You are on track I would say. And I agree as I have pointed out before although that is merely an opinion.
Others (including Jerry) may believe that it truly is Betamethasone that the horse tested positive for which would lead to his statement that it is nonsense. If that\'s the belief, then I understand the nonresponse to your post.
But the idea that these horses tested positive for Beta because of actual use of Beta is difficult for me to believe.
Go back to the Oaklawn positives for Charlatan and Gamine. They were for lidocaine. Baffert won with 3 horses that day at Oaklawn (May 2, 2020): Charaltan by 6, Nadal by 3, and Gamine by a neck. Only 2 of the 3 tested positive despite their argument that it was a pain patch worn by Barnes OR other environmental contamination. The Arkansas Racing Commission let him off the hook likely believing the excuses posed about back patches or test barn problems. Baffert alluded to another horse in the Ark Derby field testing positive also as part of the environmental contamination . . . . I would love to know who it was and who the trainer was for that horse. (I bet I could guess the horse and the trainer if this is true although this was never stated or mentioned by anyone else that another horse had tested positive that I can find).
Gamine goes on to run in the September Kentucky Oaks of 2020 and tests positive for Beta when finishing third. The NY Times had to report the positive as Baffert didn\'t acknowledge it until after it came to light. He accepted the $1500 fine and DQ from the race and purse forfeiture. I have not found an explanation of this positive as they must have found it prudent to take this joke of a punishment and move on.
Between the Gamine positives, Mereneith out at Del Mar tested positive in July of 2020 for Dextrorphan which is a metabolite of Dexamethasone. The groom was using Dayquil and Nyquil claimed their camp saying another case of environmental contamination.
As we know, in the Derby, MS tests positive for Beta. If you go back and watch the Baffert barn presser where he announced the positive himself and if you can read people a little bit and listen to his exact words, you can probably see that his later claim of Skin Ointment doesn\'t fit either.
Where it gets interesting for me is the original Ark positives. Lidocaine is usually a numbing agent for a corticosteroid administration as best as I can decipher. I would need someone to teach me far more to make any conclusions or further associations about those cases but it is very interesting that lidocaine has such a marked relation to the administration of corticosteroids (like Beta and Dex let\'s say).
People far smarter than me in the scientific world can surely connect all these dots on a molecular level. But that wiretapped convo between Rhien and Servis sure says a lot about what Servis was using and how the tests would come back if anything. (Likely as Dex they said).
https://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/wiretaps-reveal-alleged-dopers-bravado-ignorance-and-fears/
So, I have no idea what caused the positive tests including MS. It very well could be just lidocaine, dexatrorphan, and betamethasone. But I don\'t believe this to be so. If his horses were this good as some like to routinely argue, why would he need to use these Mickey Mouse meds so routinely on horses that are winning so easily?
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Since we are down this path, let me point out the latest superstar trainer to be allegedly dealing with an issue and a positive test from Ky Derby week. I\'ll link the Indian Charlie newsletter (a good one overall this time) and you can read about the horse Averly Jane who runs at Keeneland tomorrow. Golden Pal just had a nice run at Keeneland from the same barn to repel the bids of others at the top of the stretch.
https://www.indiancharlie.com/
Yup.
Richie
A very well thought out post. Much appreciated.
Thought TGJB\'s \"nonsense\" positive caught me a bit by surprise.
Am assuming he was distinguishing between the \"effects\' of the actual substances in question on a kind of \"first level\" analysis.
You have taken the conversation to a \"Bud Light Year Infinity and Beyond\"
level with a little Columbo interwoven. )\"Oh....just one more thing\"
Am not going to repeat a previous rant on Bob B or any of the chemistry Majors on the backstretch. It is pretty clear that Trainers, Vets, Meds Suppliers, etc. all directly involved with backstretch help, owners and track managements acting as silent co-conspirators. (at different levels of participation).
Proving it is the challenge.
Bob
I think people should be focusing a lot more on the Clenbuterol positives. That stuff is a true performance enhancer.
A second focus should be on whether the tracks are testing, and how. And whether they are using the the tool we developed with the Jockey Club for themâ€" and again, how. And doing the other thing that would indicate they’re actually seriousâ€" freezing and retesting samples.
And finally, there needs to be a lot more attention paid to the vets. Who is treating whom.
Both. They’re really trying to clean things up and the sport is, and always has been beyond repair. At least in this country it is.
30 days for holding a horse? They’re giving tacit approval to race fixing.
For entertainment purposes only.
I like your vet comment. If there was an \"investigating horse doping 101\" class, students would be taught to note the trainers who are getting positives AND THEN look at the vets who those trainers use. 100% there is a correlation from the dirty trainers to the dirty vets. But, nobody ever publicly discusses it.
sorry to burst your bubble, but serious players have been discussing it for 4 decades . at least
there is no way to know who the vets are unless you\'re an owner or have contacts on the backside.
NYRA doesn\'t even publish the JOCK AGENTS list anywhere I can find. Everything is a big secret
Boscar Obarra Wrote:
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> sorry to burst your bubble, but serious players
> have been discussing it for 4 decades . at least
>
> there is no way to know who the vets are unless
> you\'re an owner or have contacts on the backside.
>
>
> NYRA doesn\'t even publish the JOCK AGENTS list
> anywhere I can find. Everything is a big secret
HMMM. \"Burst my bubble?\" I assume you mean that I have illusions of what is going on. I have owned horses every year since 1990. Some Grade 1 winners. So, I assume you are one of the \"serious players\" that you reference. And, according to you serious players have been discussing this topic for 40+ years yet \"there is no way to know who the vets are unless you are an owner or have contacts on the backside.\"
What have you been discussing then for 40+ years? The fact that you just don\'t know?
NYRA and CHRB and the rest of the race track operators know the information that you say they don\'t know. It is also ridiculous to imply that race tracks don\'t know who the jock agents represent -- if that is what you are trying to say. I stand by my original comment. The people who have authority to do something about this (not the serious players you again reference) have turned a blind\'s eye to this. The vets need to be held accountable -- especially when illegal drugs are being used -- and they have not been.
First, the issue is whether the information is publicly available, not whether somebody knows it.
Second of all I can tell you for a fact that NYRA does not know which vet is treating each horse. The Jockey Club tells me registering that info will be something the HISA bill will make happen.
So, you say NYRA doesn\'t know which specific vets the trainers use? OK. Then it gets back to MY point that they just don\'t care to know. I am not an expert on the specifics of the HISA Bill. It certainly makes good sense though to have Federal enforcement power to govern thoroughbred racing.
Clearly I was addressing this \"But, nobody ever publicly discusses it.\"
It\'s been discussed, to death. Many times here on the TG Board.
Jockey agents used to be listed in the condition book. They appear to have stopped that years ago . I was unable to find the info last time I looked .
Should be on the NYRA site, is it ?
I’m all for cleaning up the sport.
But why do people advocate for the biggest liars and thieves in the world?
Yes to enforcement, just not by the feds.
Boscar:
Somewhere in the archives I have a Condition Book from Delaware Park, 1986.
There is indeed a page that lists all riders with their weights, agents and
agent\'s phone numbers. Some of the names: Rick Wilson (agent Al Dellape, who also
had Mary Ann Alligood\'s book), Julie Krone (Ken \"Snake\" Cooper, agent) and Chris
Antley (Drew Mollica).
Not sure when or why NYRA dropped it . Calls at 3am asking for hot tips or cursing the agent for a jocks bad ride ?
Other tracks still offer the information on their websites.
I found this. It might be a bit outdated but most of it is accurate.
Would help with the attachment.
https://www.nyra.com/aqueduct/horsemen/jockey-page.pdf
Thanks Dick, I actually found that myself, but thought it was quite old ?
Looks like a few seasons at least. Maybe still semi usable.
Found this , not sure why my previous looks at condition books didnt have this
https://nytha.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/BPSBK1.pdf
It was probably good for last winter\'s Aqueduct meet. It had Kiaran repping Luis Saez.