Lots of people saying he should.
He\'d better hope justice is blind.
They want personal cell phone records of the Stewards and exactly who called whole during the period when 22 minute inquiry was going on.
I seem to remember a Florida Derby decision being litigated. Chiefs Crown and Proud Truth
Would love to hear what their theory is supposed to be.
Silver Charm Wrote:
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> They want personal cell phone records of the
> Stewards and exactly who called whole during the
> period when 22 minute inquiry was going on.
>
> I seem to remember a Florida Derby decision being
> litigated. Chiefs Crown and Proud Truth
Appears to be a technical question. If the jockey of \"impeded\" horses do not claim an objection AND the Stewards fail to raise an Inquiry into that finish, can they nevertheless disqualify a horse to promote a \"Non Impacted\" horse that filed an Objection but was not fouled?
That is the issue. There should be a precedent and make for an easy challenge or decision not to challenge.
It won\'t matter for the payouts. That\'s a done deal. But it was a ridiculous decision lobbied for by a HOF Trainer who is a shill.
Would love to hear what their theory is supposed to be.
Sounds a lot like sour grapes. I get that they\'re disappointed, but really . . .
Flamingo.
Thanks. And that one went back and forth for a while
Rich Curtis Wrote:
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> He\'d better hope justice is blind.
I wish you had prefaced that with \"Do not read with your mouth full of coffee.\"
For some reason, the closing line of the movie, \"Chinatown\" came to mind -- \"Forget it Jake, it\'s Chinatown.\" In this instance, it\'s Kentucky. Justice gets served with a glass of Pappy Van Winkle\'s Reserve. Even if only nearsighted, justice still gets colored with a shade of bluegrass green.
\"Your honor, the rules of racing should not apply in big televised races.\"
That is what they have.
ajkreider Wrote:
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> Would love to hear what their theory is supposed
> to be.
According to the chart, Long Range Toddy was forced to check and his rider lodged a claim of foul. There is no issue. Case closed.
If you don’t think that was a foul I have to question your knowledge of the sport.
Explain to me the purpose and value of that post.
JR Wrote:
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> If you don’t think that was a foul I have to
> question your knowledge of the sport.
My knowledge of the sport can be legitimately questioned by some here, including the individual I originally quoted, but not based on what I wrote that you quoted. That comment was about a theory on the possibility (and it is only that, at least in this instance) of home cooking in Kentucky when it relates to vested interests of one of its most lucrative and entrenched industries. Nothing I wrote specifically addressed whether I thought there was a foul or not, and I would be intrigued, to say the least, how you deduced that.
The fact that Servis slipped every media event this week surely didn’t help his chances yesterday. I take it like an old boys club that he is on the outside looking in on. Foul or not, that doesn’t happen if the tables are flipped and Mott finished 1 and Servis 2.
JR Wrote:
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> According to the chart, Long Range Toddy was
> forced to check and his rider lodged a claim of
> foul. There is no issue. Case closed.
Not exactly
By the time the chart is produced the Objections have gone up previously. The decisions are based on what was alleged by those objecting at the time. An after the fact statement that another objection was raised may not prevail.
It\'s a legal question. Don\'t mess with me. Just wait and see.
The good news...it looks like I get 10 bucks back on the best horse in the race!
T Severini Wrote:
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> JR Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > According to the chart, Long Range Toddy was
> > forced to check and his rider lodged a claim of
> > foul. There is no issue. Case closed.
>
>
> Not exactly
>
> By the time the chart is produced the Objections
> have gone up previously. The decisions are based
> on what was alleged by those objecting at the
> time. An after the fact statement that another
> objection was raised may not prevail.
>
> It\'s a legal question. Don\'t mess with me. Just
> wait and see.
>
> The good news...it looks like I get 10 bucks back
> on the best horse in the race!
You got 10 bucks back on the fourth best horse in the race. You should feel lucky.
The Onwer is talking filing a Lawsuit in Federal Court. This isnt going away. And yet the Stewards made the correct call.
Tacitus had about as clear of a trip as Daniel Boone did the first time he discovered Kentucky. Game Winner was at least 6 wide on the far turn. Code of Honor got rail squeezed by the \"Winner?\". War of Will could be in Vet Clinic fighting for his life. And we have all these Maximum Security backers thinking it was a clean win? Wtf????
Let\'s not mix things up, here.
GW being wide has nothing to do with anything. He lost because that how he runs. MS didn\'t put Tacitus in traffic. Code got squeezed some, but had every shot to get by. So did County House.
Did he deserve to come down? Probably, and the possibility of disaster was real. But without that swerve, we\'d be talking about how a supposed claimer-quality stretch-out sprinter got headed in the stretch by closers trained by HOFers, and said, \"I don\'t think so.\"
Agreed. And many times this is how the Derby is run when an upfront runner doesn\'t have to deal with all that. He was game as hell in the stretch and if was anybody but Servis people would be talking about the amazing horseman job the Trainer had done. Let\'s face it this didnt have a first start until December correct??
ajkreider Wrote:
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> Let\'s not mix things up, here.
>
> GW being wide has nothing to do with anything. He
> lost because that how he runs. MS didn\'t put
> Tacitus in traffic. Code got squeezed some, but
> had every shot to get by. So did County House.
>
> Did he deserve to come down? Probably, and the
> possibility of disaster was real. But without that
> swerve, we\'d be talking about how a supposed
> claimer-quality stretch-out sprinter got headed in
> the stretch by closers trained by HOFers, and
> said, \"I don\'t think so.\"
Well said, but if anyone thought that horse was a stretch out sprinter they had their head in the sand.
http://www.thoroughbreddailynews.com/the-wests-threaten-to-get-out-of-racing/
Judging from your understanding of law I think I’m pretty safe messing with you.
That’s all just bitter conjecture. If the tables were turned the horse comes down. The foul was that blatant. Look, the incident was unfortunate but it happened. The stewards did what they had to do and I’m certain it wasn’t what they wanted to do. Otherwise it would have taken them 2 minutes not 22 minutes.
* best horse in the race. Who finished first? Oh... that’s right.
145th Kentucky Derby: “the longest 22 minutes in sportsâ€
Guess he\'s pissed off.
Who wouldn\'t be.
But someone should gently explain, that it probably took 22 minutes as there were so many horses involved, they needed to figure out how far back to put MS.
That and the effect of the mint julips
Things will get worse before they get better. And then it will settle down...a little.
West had West Coast a few years ago. Game Winner and now a homebred on the cheap in MS. Perhaps the Blueblood deep state steps up and gives this guy a $15M-$20M syndication package deal on MS to help him feel a little better. Maybe its noise leaverage to keep quiet. Anyway he was putting money in and now has Cash machine taking money out.
This Trophy isn\'t changing hands. If this horse had gone in a traditional GP or SA maiden in December and listed anyone notable as the trainer (Mott, Shug, Bob, Chad) he would be one of the great stories in racing history. Came from nowhere and won the Kentucky Derby. There are two things I am actually now starting to feel bad for. Servis and the horse.
Johnny and Oscar I hope you all killed it.
I did not read all the posts in between, not sure if this was mentioned or not.
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-04-30-sp-52286-story.html
It was litigated they had experts w lasers etc..........
and lost.
oddly I did not see any links to the actual court case but do recall that it took place.
Speaking of the Big Cap, how about in 2011 when Game On Dude stayed up. I had a win bet on him & I never thought he would stay. Good thing Baffert was his trainer.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXBxGpcYl7Q
toppled Wrote:
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> Speaking of the Big Cap, how about in 2011 when
> Game On Dude stayed up. I had a win bet on him &
> I never thought he would stay. Good thing Baffert
> was his trainer.
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXBxGpcYl7Q
I had Setsuko at 25/1 to win and keyed with Soul Candy in all kinds of wagers and still counting money if he wins.
Thanks for the memories.
Ditto on the empathy for Maximum Security, Luis Saez, Mr. Servis and the Wests. Not the most cuddly bunch of riffraff\'s but their horse has been nothing but a good boy, even if he\'s green, he\'s still learning and should get better if he (hopefully) stays sound.
Furthermore, his rider Luis has already had to deal with heavy life stuff like his baby bro Juan Saez passing after his horse fell at Indiana Grand. 17yo kid was a decent rider just getting started around these circuits, but now lay prone on the track on a mid-October night, dead before he could drink. That\'s enough to mess with any 27yo person but then also realize he had to deal with the vitriol and absurd accusations about buzzers and Will Take Charge up at Saratoga.
I just have tons of respect for how Luis has persevered and refocused, and to take this type of win away from a young man like him is soul-crushing. Here\'s hoping Luis has the wherewithal to keep on-keepin on. But that\'s just my opinion... Servis just seems like a crabby Grandpa who wants to be left alone so he can enjoy his horses and train sets while he can.
It was wrong to take that feeling of joy away from the connections from his groom to Mr. West, and that\'s my biggest issue with the DQ. I can\'t sympathize with folks who so capriciously, meekly, and messily ignored the heft of the event and the lives that would change following their stewards decisions, and, accordingly after 22mins, as Indiana Jones would say, they \"chose poorly\". :(
Enough downer talk--just for comparison, here\'s the 2011 BC Mile https://youtu.be/7_JY35JjPt8 staring Goldikova at CD. #spoileralert there\'s quite the late move she makes, and I bet you\'ll NEVER guess how it was handled?😉
mlnolan00 Wrote:
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s wrong to take that feeling of joy away from
> the connections from his groom to Mr. West, and
> that\'s my biggest issue with the DQ. I can\'t
> sympathize with folks who so capriciously, meekly,
> and messily ignored the heft of the event and the
> lives that would change following their stewards
> decisions, and, accordingly after 22mins, as
> Indiana Jones would say, they \"chose poorly\". :(
>
It\'s fine to feel compassion for the aggrieved, or at least in this case Saez and those doing much of the grunt work who were denied their one taste of glory, but that can never be the standard for decision-making in competition. Nor does the heft of the event influence that. Rules can\'t be ignored. I\'m not saying they were correctly applied here, because I don\'t know, but game changing calls, whether it\'s the final two minutes of the Super Bowl or 7th game of the NBA Championship series, or the Run for the Roses, are part of the game, though one assumes and hopes they are made with a level of discernment commensurate with the moment. Sentiment needs to be checked at the door. When you enter the ring, you know that\'s the risk you run. Wide World of Sports -- the agony of defeat. That\'s endemic to all sports.
JB, I know you want this to end, so I\'ll pay my fine to you with some kind of vodka concoction at Siro\'s in August, but I can\'t let this slide because we already have too much \"participation trophy\" sentiment infiltrating competition, and I\'m not taking a position on the correctness of the decision.
\"Sentiment needs to be checked at the door. When you enter the ring, you know that\'s the risk you run. Wide World of Sports -- the agony of defeat. That\'s endemic to all sports.\"
Second this! Cue Kipling and all those other now politically incorrect bastards.
The Saints have a much bigger beef.
Yes they do. Now that’s an example of political correctness.
No way this thing gets overturned. And now we have the horse who won the KY Derby skipping the Preakness, and we have the horse who was PLACED first in KY Derby skipping the Preakness. All of which is no good for the sport, fans or the TV ratings.
We also now have \"a precedent\" established for the DQ of the winner of the KY Derby. Meanwhile we all know there is \"technically\" a horse that fouls another horse almost every year in the KY Derby. What if NFL reps called holding any play it actually occurs? What about the start of the race? If they didn\'t take Bayern down a few years ago in the BC Classic then when should a horse come down for interference at the start?
My point is this: Churchill better get out front of this and define what the players and connections of the runners should expect moving forward, and how they expect them to behave after the race moving forward. There was no way Casse was going to claim a foul and the 1 horse was clearly impacted at a point of the race while he had position and was rallying with a chance to win (not saying whether he would have or not). But it was clearly a foul, and that part of this shouldn\'t be up for debate.
So as players, what should we expect moving forward? What about what happens at the start of the race (see almost every KY Derby run in past 15 years), or the run to and through the first turn (see just about every KY Derby run past 15 years). Is it just the backstretch, 2nd turn and stretch run that \"count?\"
I just want to know what to expect. That\'s all. Someone smarter than me or with more time, please let me know.
What a *hit Show
As far as I can tell, California (Bayern) and Kentucky have different rules governing fouls. A basic first step would be for everyone to have the same rules.
Yes, I get it. Clearly in California the start of the race doesn\'t matter at all. You can be the 7 horse and wipe out the 6, 5 and 4 and since it isn\'t clear whether this cost them a better a placing it is ok. Or maybe not if they actually fall down or lose their jockey. Perhaps the jock on Shared Belief should have pulled up or jumped off.
In any case, the KY Derby is a roughly run race. I just want to know what to expect moving forward and Churchill should get out front of it. That\'s all I\'m saying. As a player, in the biggest race in North America every year, I think that is fair.
I\'m already over this year\'s race and what happened and see no point in debating it.
Not red boarding. Frequent a dinking establishment and gave the owner a tip on the derby. Long story short said owner gave me $20 bucks to bet on said bet. I returned his winning today giving him $750 bucks. Said owner did not even buy me a beer much less pick up the 5 beer tab. What would you do?
Get Lawyered up.... :-)
Never go back.
I agree. Known this individual for pert near 15 years when he was just a bartender. Must be where I live I guess.
Give it another try, ask him “how about that race! These assholes won’t shut the F about it on this message board I visit. What do you think?†... joking aside, I’d take the high road. Maybe he was busy or something. Go there ask him about his $10 wager (my guess is you gave him 2 horses) and give him a hard time about it, if you’re close. ... some people a tone deaf.
Uniformed rules would be great. So would uniformed testing.
I don\'t think the rules change makes much a difference now as the damage is done.
A DQ has happened in the Derby and you can bet anything you\'ll see more riders take a shot in the future. The bar has been set now and the fact it was set on such unsavory grounds, I have no doubt we will see more of it.
And what standard are they going to use now?
What if we see a move like this at the start of the Derby, is it a DQ when someone way outside comes crashing down to get position?
Or are we back to it\'s a roughly run race and there are 20 horses blah blah blah.
Way more damage making that DQ than not. If you leave MS up, people on the #1 or #18 are going to be over it a lot easier than people on #7 who was clearly best. Maybe you have some back and forth but you have the fact the #1 didn\'t claim foul and the stewards never hit the button. Your argument for #1 goes out the window when the rider doesn\'t claim foul so all you have to worry about is the #18, who was not coming home first no matter what.
People are over it by the Preakness. Maybe it gets mentioned again, maybe it doesn\'t.
Instead we have this, and this isn\'t going away. This will be discussed for years and impact the sport forever.
That is why you don\'t make the same call as you do if the same move happens at Indiana Downs on a Wednesday afternoon.
You have to take the entire scenario into play. Look at refs in basketball. You aren\'t calling a foul most times on a game winning shot unless it is brutal. Nobody wants to see a game end that way.
WTF
We now have become Dear Abby.....
Standard etiquette is if you made the bet for him, cashed it and brought him back the money you should be due 10%. You could have taken the old numbers runners approach, they took their 10% out and told you so. Some still expected a tip on top of that. ðŸ'°
Now I realize it’s the Derby and novice players are abound. For God’s sake a bar owner that you seem to support his business can’t even buy you a drink or throw you a $20..... That my friends is a piece of poop. ðŸ'©
If you ever spend a nickel in their again? You’re as dumb as a horseplayer who gives up 20 cents on a buck, plays against cheaters, is abused by the entire industry and lets inconsistent stewards decisions pick your pockets.....
What time are you buying the bar a drink tomorrow Joe? We’ll all be there 😎
Lol. More like a Dear Jerry...
Hey! I’m just trying to shift the narrative here. I’ll go away and come back for the Peter Pan.
You have a young up and coming jock.
He has the two hole, how do you not watch every Borel Derby ride until it hurts.
It should of been engraved in his head “DO NOT LEAVE THE RAILâ€.
If he stays on the rail well who knows.
Moving on.
If his wife/girlfriend hangs around the bar and is hot I would start hitting on her.
joemama Wrote:
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> Not red boarding. Frequent a dinking
> establishment and gave the owner a tip on the
> derby. Long story short said owner gave me $20
> bucks to bet on said bet. I returned his winning
> today giving him $750 bucks. Said owner did not
> even buy me a beer much less pick up the 5 beer
> tab. What would you do?
I would have called him out as soon as he didn\'t pick up the tab on the beer.
\"Geezus Bill, you can\'t even buy me a fking beer after I hand you $750?? Really\"
Little late now.
Actually his wife was with him yesterday when we met up and she\'d be worth taking a shot at but I am not going back to his establishment. I\'ll have to wait to bump into her at the food store.
I went over and briefly spoke to him before leaving. Told him his 20 bucks was going to go on Code of Honors nose. That\'s how I should have left it from the git go.
Calling the guy out immediately is what I\'ve done.
Andrew Beyer on the other hand would give out false tips, according to one of his books.
How that ever stayed up God only knows. Same for Bayern. No shot at Baffert here, just..... My God the incompetence.