New Stronach Pick-5 is not unwelcome. But it should be a 50 cent wager, not a $1 wager.
With wagering minimums watered down, I have to disagree. There are plenty of low takeout p5 wagers out there on a daily basis for fifty cents.
This one has the low takeout of 12 percent and the higher minimum forces better decision making rather than spread, spread, spread at the low minimum. With $2 Pick 6\'s likely to disappear sooner than later except on the biggest days of the year due to jackpot greed by the racetracks, this is a welcome wager I will certainly agree. The result will be higher payoffs as compared to parlay than the fifty cent varieties. Rocky can you weigh in with a more intelligent explanation here?
I know zero about Golden Gate and Gulfstream summer racing so I will not be playing. But for those that have strong opinions on the races that they put together when they offer it, this is an excellent wager.
Will TG offer a product on these 5 races only?? (as I\'m sure it would sell quite well esp on a carryover week to the following Friday).
In full agreement with keeping the minimum bet at $1
In full agreement with hoping TG offers a Stronach Pick 5 special
Now available either with TG sheets or TG thoro-quick for $20 as a Special. It is NOT part of the regular price schedule.
Fairmount1 Wrote:
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> With wagering minimums watered down, I have to
> disagree. There are plenty of low takeout p5
> wagers out there on a daily basis for fifty cents.
>
>
> This one has the low takeout of 12 percent and the
> higher minimum forces better decision making
> rather than spread, spread, spread at the low
> minimum. With $2 Pick 6\'s likely to disappear
> sooner than later except on the biggest days of
> the year due to jackpot greed by the racetracks,
> this is a welcome wager I will certainly agree.
> The result will be higher payoffs as compared to
> parlay than the fifty cent varieties. Rocky can
> you weigh in with a more intelligent explanation
> here?
>
Mathematically (and from what I\'ve observed empirically), it makes no difference -- the invisible hand of the market tends to drive payouts towards what\'s expected based on the takeout-adjusted win parlays, regardless of minimum bet size.
The only exception might be when dealing with winning sequences comprised of long-priced combos in very small pools for which there might otherwise be no winning tickets if not for the smaller bet size. This will probably rarely be the case with this bet however, considering the industry-low takeout which will likely attract strong betting interest.
On the whole though, a lower minimum bet benefits anyone who\'s not a \"big fish\" since it levels the playing field by enabling smaller players to compete with the same fully fleshed out tickets as the whales. It also used to help prevent Uncle Sam from confiscating a player\'s gross winnings when the payout exceeded the $5,000 threshold, but with the new IRS withholding rules being based on total wager amount rather than base bet that\'s no longer a concern.
The only time you really see small minimum bet sizes creating the kind of spreading that produces payouts that diverge with some regularity from what\'s expected based on the takeout-adjusted parlays is with the jackpot wagers. And that\'s actually a boon to astute handicappers since the jackpot chasers produce overlaid prices on logical contenders as a result of their rampant spreading.
The point about higher minimums forcing better decision-making and reducing sloppy betting practices is another matter -- that speaks to the importance of sound betting strategy and money management, which should of course be done regardless of minimum bet size.
Thanks
Thanks so much for this information and always very insightful. I had no idea I was this wrong....(go ahead Saratoga backyard regulars....let the jokes begin now LOL!)
Thanks for this.I would\'ve thought exactly the same as Fairmount. Surprised it doesn\'t dilute the payout much if at all.
-Scott
$157k pool.
Pick 5 parlay came in at 4753.50 if my math is right for $1.
Paid 9,888.30.
I know you have a formula for determining what the expected pay beyond parlay is with takeout (?from memory?) taken into account on these horizontal wagers. Is this close to what you would have expected?
Your math is right on Richie.
The takeout-adjusted parlay is 117.8% higher = $10,353.75, so it came in pretty much right in line with the actual $9,888.30 payoff (14 winning tickets).
The value of the wager is evident in both the industry-low 12% takeout and in the fact that you only get hit with the takeout once, vs. five times in the win pool at takeouts of 18%, 15.43%, 17%, 15.43% and 17% in the respective legs, resulting in an payout expectation of more than double the raw win parlay.
Okay, I have a question, except I don\'t really know how to ASK the question.
The question has to do with a five-horse parlay in which only five horses are played (one in each race) vs. a Pic-5 in which WAY more than five horses are played. I mean: Nobody but the insane plays a five-horse parlay.
What are your mathematical thoughts on this? (Assuming you can see where I\'m trying to go.)
hellersorr Wrote:
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> Okay, I have a question, except I don\'t really
> know how to ASK the question.
>
> The question has to do with a five-horse parlay in
> which only five horses are played (one in each
> race) vs. a Pic-5 in which WAY more than five
> horses are played. I mean: Nobody but the insane
> plays a five-horse parlay.
>
> What are your mathematical thoughts on this?
> (Assuming you can see where I\'m trying to go.)
Try not to let the reference to parlays confuse you.
The only reason parlays are used to estimate Pick 5 payouts (and other horizontal wagers) is because it’s the easiest way to determine each horse’s associated win probabilities, which is ultimately how you calculate the win probability of a multirace bet and its associated payout.
It has nothing to do with the actual betting of a parlay. You’d never want to bet a parlay anyway because you’re getting hit with the takeout five times instead of once in a Pick 5. This means, depending on the track-specific takeout, a Pick 5 is going to pay on the order of twice what the parlay pays, and it’s part of the reason why the Pick 5 and the other horizontals are such great bets (along with the fact that your edge is multiplicative).
Why We Use Parlays to Estimate Multirace Exotic Payouts
Let’s say we want to estimate the payout on a $.50 Pick 5 at Gulfstream (win takeout = 17%, Pick 5 takeout = 15%). And let’s say, for the sake of simplicity, that the winner of each leg paid exactly $8.00.
One way to calculate what a Pick 5 should pay is to first figure out what the associated win probabilities are, then multiply the five win probabilities together, and then adjust for the Pick 5 takeout.
So if the winner of each leg paid $8.00, the odds of each horse were 3-1 and the associated win probabilities were 1/(3+1) = 25%.
Backing out the win takeout, the true win probability of each horse was = 0.25*0.83 = 20.75%.
So the probability of hitting the Pick 5 sequence of those five horses = 0.2075^5 = 0.0385%.
Adjusting for the Pick 5 takeout, the probability = 0.000385/0.85 = 0.045%.
Which equates to odds of (1/0.00045)+1 = 2,210-1.
Hence the estimated $.50 Pick 5 payout = $1,105.
That’s a whole lot of work to calculate a Pick 5 payout. Fortunately there’s a much easier way to do it, which is where the concept of a parlay comes in. Since the $2 win payouts are readily available (unlike the associated win probabilities), we can just multiply the five win payouts together and then adjust for the difference in takeouts.
We first compute the $0.50 raw win parlay: ($8.00^5)/(2^4)/4 = $512
Then we just adjust for the difference in takeout: $512*(1-0.15)/(1-0.17)^5 = $1,105
Same result, but much, much easier to compute.
The underlying assumption of course, is that horses are bet in the same proportion in the multirace bets as they are in the win pools. In theory this is true if the markets are efficient. It turns out to be true in practice as well, at least over the long run, although day-to-day actual results can and will vary from the theoretical estimate.
The Power of Multirace Exotic Bets
As to the question about playing a myriad of combinations in a Pick 5, that\'s perfectly all right and desirable. Ideally you want to play any and all positive-expectation combinations, as determined by your fair odds line. This is where the other advantage of multirace bets â€" the fact that your edge is multiplicative â€" also comes into play.
Unlike win wagers, where each horse you bet needs to be an overlay in order to show a profit, not every horse in a Pick 5 combination need be an overlay. All that matters is that the overall combination is an overlay (ie. has a positive expectation). In fact, you could actually put together a ticket where none of the horses are overlays in and of themselves in the win pool and still have a positive expectation on the overall Pick 5 combination.
For instance, let’s say you\'re a decent handicapper, not great, but good enough to cut the track take down to say, -4%. Now suppose you’ve identified five horses in a Pick 5 sequence that you deem to be partial overlays, but none of them are worth a bet on their own because they don’t quite overcome the track take.
For simplicity, let’s say you\'ve identified a horse in each leg whose fair odds you think are 3-2 but that is going off at 7-5.
Your edge on each such horse = (final odds+1)/(fair odds+1)-1 = 2.4/2.5 - 1 = -0.04 = -4%.
Because you’re still looking at a negative expectation, albeit much less than the track take, none of these horses are playable in the win pool. But let\'s look at this in a Pick 5 at Gulfstream again.
The $0.50 raw win parlay on this series of horses = ($4.80^5)/(2^4)/4 = $39.80.
But because of the difference in takeout rates and the fact that you only get hit with the takeout once, the Pick 5 should pay $39.80*(1-0.15)/(1-0.17)^5 = $85.90.
The $0.50 raw win parlay based on your fair odds = ($5.00^5)/(2^4)/4 = $48.83 (this is your break-even point).
The result is, instead of the -18.5% negative expectation you’re facing in the win pool ($39.80/$48.83-1), you now have a +76% positive expectation in the Pick 5 pool ($85.90/$48.83-1).
Because your edge is multiplicative, and because you only get hit with the takeout once, you can play many, many combinations in the multirace exotics, many of which contain horses that are even underlays in the win pool, and still make money. You just need to try to make sure you’re only betting combinations that have an overall positive expectation when you string the individual horses together.
This is exactly how the computer guys are crushing the game. You do not have to be the best handicapper in the world. You don\'t even have to find horses that are positive expectation bets on their own. What you do have to be able to do is identify horses that at least have enough value to significantly reduce the track take, and then use the advantageous takeout structure of exotic wagers to turn the tables in your favor.
The beauty of the multirace exotics is that you really only need one overlay to generate a pretty high ROI.
For example, consider a Pick 5 where you have one +25% overlay along with four efficiently priced horses (where you expect to lose the track take). You’re overall expectation is 1.25*(.83)^4*(1-0.15)/(1-0.17)^5 = 1.28 = +28% ROI.
You can even throw in an underlay or two (where you expect to lose more than the track take) with a modest overlay or two and generate a significant ROI: 1.25*1.1*.90*.85*.70*(1-0.15)/(1-0.17)^5 = 1.589 = +59% ROI.
If you happen to get a bunch of mild overlays of say +5% to come in, you would generate an ROI of 1.05^5*(1-0.15)/(1-0.17)^5 = 2.926 = +192.6% ROI, or almost three times your investment.
And if you were lucky enough to string together a bunch of +25% overlays in the same sequence, your ROI would be a whopping 1.25^5*(1-0.15)/(1-0.17)^5 = 6.585 = +585.5% ROI.
You\'re unlikely to get all your biggest overlays home in the same sequence of course, but this shows the power of the multiplicative effect of your edge and of the advantageous takeout structure of multirace exotics when combined with just some modest handicapping skill. Those large ROIs will of course be diluted by all your other losing Pick 5 combinations, but as long as you\'re playing only positive expectation bets, your long run ROI should trend towards your average expectation.
With such large ROIs, you can play a lot of combinations and still show a healthy profit. In fact, it’s preferable to play more rather than less combinations since it will increase your win rate, an important consideration when dealing with low-probability wagers that put your bankroll on a rollercoaster ride. You just need to make sure you’re emphasizing your overlays and/or partial overlays and minimizing your underlays so that the combinations you’re playing all have a positive expectation (ROI).
One of the best posts that I have read on this board in a long time. As such, I nominate this post for a permanent home in the TG archives. Great work - much appreciated.
Mathcapper is a national treasure ;-)
I agree, sticky
Well, now you\'re just showing off, Rocky.
To wit: \"For instance, let\'s say you\'re a decent handicapper, not great but good enough to cut the track take down to say, -4%.\"
Um, my ROI for the year is -3.96%. You wanna tell me how the hell you know THAT?
You\'re starting to scare me. . . .