I doubt you have put together the figs from the weekend, but Beyer did, and he has the Whitney with very strong numbers, and the Dandy, while run a full second faster was considerably lowere rated. In fact Sarava is the key, he ran his new career best by 5 lengths according to Beyer. Is this correct?
Won\'t be getting to this until at least tomorrow, and leaving for Sar right after (working on the train). Ask me next week.
I did the days out of order. Roses In May paired his top, PD ran 1/2 point off his, Bowman a point off his, Sarava paired his. Purge ran a hair worse than Perfect Drift did. The track was sealed after the 5th Saturday, then unsealed before the next dirt race (seventh). The two days were independent.
\" PD ran 1/2 point off his\"
Is this off his top from this year or his all time top. Just wondering, as the two are quite a bit different.
thanks
Post Edited (08-10-04 19:54)
Lifetime top, in all cases.
> PD ran 1/2 point off his lfetime top, Purge ran a hair worse than Perfect Drift did.
OK, I know what The Cliffs Edge ran in the Blue Grass, Birdstone is fresh, and Lion Heart was neg 1 1/2 in the Haskel Prep. Looks like an unbelievable Travers.
Smarty Who???
thanks for the clarification. much appreciated
Thank you, obviously the numbers in relation though were alot closer than the spread in the beyer figs, which was what I suspected.
SC-
Sorry but Smarty is decidedly better than the above mentioned 3YOs. Purge has already tried facing Smarty several times and look what happened. Same with Lion Heart. Birdstone had a very favorable pace scenario in a race run at an irrelevant distance. Yeah they just ran nice numbers but they had to get away from SJ to do it.
Did not mean to disrespect your Hero. But Smarty is gone and Great Racing lives on. I won\'t be sitting around Travers Day saying where\'s Smarty.
Like DRF Ed-in-Chief Steve Christ(sic) stated in his excellant column Saturday, Smarty will not go in the Hall of Fame five years from now, he didn\'t do enough to deserve it.
That\'s true, and a lot of it is because his peers weren\'t very good.
That does not seem like a fair assesment at this point, both purge and lion heart seem like runners to me. better then anything point given beat except for congaree. Its a little early to make such a blanket statement.
Smarty will never sniff the hall of fame.
Gentlemen
Now that Lion Heart has a jockey who is not afraid maybe we will see the real Lion Heart. The one that should have won the Derby and Preakness.
Thank You
Cozzene
why is it every year there are these posts about it being a horrible 3 yr old crop?
could somebody please give me a short list of a few of the years when it wasn\'t weak?
re: lion heart
he\'s a real nice horse and he ran a great race in the derby -- he just got beat, that\'s all.
they pretty much all get beat on occasion.
had smarty stuck around, maybe lion heart would\'ve turned the tables on him later in the year.
we\'ll never know.....
Here\'s a few strong 3YO crops: 1987, 1984, 1997, 1985
ok, not trying to be a ballbuster, but could you have dropped a couple names, or do I have to go look all that up?
I\'m not rainman, you know.
and what are you basing this \'strong\' qualification on?
also, am I to understand that basically every crop in the last 17 years has been \'weak\'?
Cozzene--
You\'re kidding, right???
LH couldn\'t get a mile and a quarter against stakes competition if you tied him to a truck.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
Lucy-
This is off the top of my head so I may miss some:
1984- Swale, Gate Dancer, Vanlandingham, Time for a Change, Devils Bag, Dr. Carter, Track Barron, Precisionist
1985- Spend a Buck, Chiefs Crown, Tanks Prospect, Proud Truth, Creme Fraiche, Smile
1987- Alysheba, Bet Twice, Lost Code, Java Gold, Cryptoclearance, Candi\'s Gold, Gone West, Gulch
1997- Silver Charm, Cpt Bodgitt, Free House, Touch Gold, Deputy Commander
I would say most years are average. I would say the years Lil E Tee and Sea Hero won were probably the worst. Of course, its just my opinion but I don\'t think I\'m the only one who feels that way.
Purge 4 for 4 in races w/no Smarty Jones and 0 for 3 against him. I think that sums up the rest of the 2004 3YOs.
1986 was pretty good as well. Ferdinand, Snow Chief, Broad Brush, Groovy, and Danzig Connection come to mind.
I would say 1989 with Sunday Silence and Easy Goer would have to be considered a pretty good crop given that they finished 1/2 in the BC classic that year.
I think we tend to underrate the crops each year and it gets worse every year because, as someone noted earlier, we have a lot more horses cranked up to run big numbers as 2yos and early 3 and those precocious types seldom improve or even last until the fall or as 4yos.
If you don\'t get them cranked up early, you have almost no chance to win stakes. The best example is Zito. He used to have stakes winners at 2 and early 3 using \"traditional\" training methods. In the last 5 years, he was getting his clock cleaned in such races. Last summer he openly stated he was going to start really cranking them up at 2 and early 3 and sure enough he was back in the limelight.
The game has changed for better or worse as does everything else...
Chris
I would say 1987 stood out more than the others.
GULCH winning the Met Mile, JAVA GOLD taking the Whitney, ALYSHEBA running his eyeballs out against the older FERDINAND in the BC CLASSIC.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
Joe B
We will see in the Travers. When he wins I will expect an apology.
Lion Heart is the best of his crop.
His circumstances were compromised by innefective rides.
Thank You
Cozzene
Agree 1986 was pretty strong also. Don\'t forget Rare Brick, who retired 6 for 6. I think Storm Cat would\'ve been a 3YO that year but I don\'t remember him running as a 3YO.
As for 1989, it was very top heavy. I\'m trying to remember the others; Clever Trevor? Awe Inspiring? That crop had 2 stars but wasn\'t very deep.
1994 might\'ve been a decent year also. Concern won the BC Classic, and Holy Bull was in that crop but neither won a TC race that year as Tabasco Cat and Go for Gin won those.
I think Lion Heart was certainly one of the best of his crop at Derby time, but I am less convinced than most that his recent efforts are all that good in light of the passage of time since spring. IMO, he hasn\'t made much if any progress. He may even be worse than his springtime peak so far.
Some of his spring efforts were a lot better than they looked not only because of the ground loss, but because of the amount of effort on the first turn to get and sustain position while so wide.
I don\'t think his Haskell prep effort was up to that standard considering he was life and death to beat a 2nd stringer while overcoming a similarly tough trip.
I am willing to grant that he may not have been 100% that day. Even his trainer said it was a prep. So he was very likely to move forward off that mediocre effort.
As far as I am concerned, in the Haskell he had one of his easiest trips ever and he was still not drawing off to a big win against a field that was only two deep. The other of course was RHT who was horrible. You can\'t draw ANY conclusions about figures or performance based on RHT\'s effort there. (by the way I agree with the consensus that RHT was an underlay at 4-5)
One thing is certain, 10 furlongs is not Liion Heart\'s best distance.
So if I am right about his recent performances (that he hasn\'t made any progress), he is a definite bet against in the Travers if anyone that shows up looks like a legitimate improving 3YO that wants 10 furlongs.
Its too bad Medallist isn\'t likely to go in the Travers. What would be the over/under for beaten lengths for Lion Heart if Medallist went? I\'d say 15.
Cozzene--
I, in turn, expect one if I\'m right.
the best of his crop? send me some of what you\'re smoking.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
Remember who the initial Superhorse of 86 was before he even started Mogambo....oops lost his maiden race to 20-1 longshot Ogygian who then he became the Superhorse. The Nerud clan actually tried to put a syndication value of $100M on him.
Storm Cat ran once at Maryland for Shephard as a 3YO. WT Young didn\'t even nominated him for the Derby.
Remember Walter #@%*&!# Kelly and John\'s &*%^&# Treasure.
As far as 1987 goes as an added spice to that crew was the filly division which included Personal Ensign and Very Subtle. They won a race or two.
Ditto (to 1987 crop).
Post Edited (08-13-04 14:39)
Silver:
You have a very good memory. Tartan actually had two of the \"fastest horses ever\" that year.
Roy, another Nerud runner was bet down to 3-5 for his debut apparently becuase the clockers had confused him with Ogygian (who had worked significantly faster). I believe Ogygian actually paid a price first out after Roy lost his first two starts.
Add the undefeated Meadowlake to that same crop (3 yo in 1986)
Add this bit of trivia to the Meadowlake and Ogygian history. I was working in Chicago that summer, it was the year that Arlington burned down. My living quarters were two miles from Arlington and the week I was scheduled to go to Chicago for the remainder of the summer the track burned down.
All racing was then moved to Hawthorne which is completely on the other side of town. Between Rush Street hangovers and the track I didn\'t have a whole lot else going on that summer. Anyway got to the track for the first race one Saturday and watched a 12-1 morning line horse who was bet down to 5-2, win by TWENTY THREE LENGTHS.
His name Meadowlake.
Flew home a couple of years ago with Juvenal Diaz who rode Meadowlake that day. I asked him how they were able to pull that kind of price off with a horse that fast. He told me Bert Sonnier the trainer never gave the horse a name until the week before the race, and they got his gate card in the dark hours of the morning.
Diaz also told me that the first time he got on this horse he told Bert this horse can absolutely FLY. He swears the horse was as fast Secretariat. They actually wanted to go to Saratoga and run him in the Grade I Hopeful as a FIRST TIME STARTER but were afraid the owner throw a fit if it didn\'t work out. So they stayed in Chicago and made a nice little score on him that day.
Makes you really want to bet those two year old races today doesn\'t it.
When the meet shifted to HAW after the fire, they had no time to properly prepare the track and just layed down an additional cushion to accomadate the racing. Older, seasoned stakes horses were having a hard time seeing anything this side of 1:12 and Meadowlake broke his maiden in 1:09 and change.
He then ran in Arlington-Washington Futurity which was GR1 back then. One of the trainers who shipped in walked the track and said of Meadowlake\'s maiden score ...\"if he ran that fast on this, he will win by the length of the stretch\". He broke bad and drew off to win by 10 in a gallop.
I waited the whole winter for the Ogygian/Meadowlake match-up, but it never materialized. Two year olds always seem to pay a big price for fast races.
You got a pretty good memory 4singles2all.
That trainer who walked the track was named Mr D. Wayne Lukas. He REALLY could not believe the time because the additional cushion you spoke of was six inches of sand.
And yes you are totally correct the poor condition of the track is what broke Meadowlake down. Diaz is doing a little pinhooking in Ocala these days and it is probably only fitting that his name and this story came up on Arlington Million Day. Since he used to be a dominant force in Chicago.
If you called him today he will still swear that Meadowlake was as fast as Secretariat.
Yes, I remember 86 very well because Mogambo was supposed to be very good but Ogygian(who is one of my favorite horses of all time) slapped him around pretty good. Mogambo was trained by Jolly and that is the same time Track Barron was running. Jolley gave Cordero a share in the horse at stud to get him to ride against Lady Secret in the 86 Whitney in which Lady Secret manhandled him(or is it woman handled). I don\'t know if horses are getting better but they are getting faster!! But, we always look back at the older horses and say what good have been. Ogygian hurt his back in one of those races and was never the same again.
Meadowlake was super fast but a cripple who I thought would be much better at Stud than he actually was.
I seem to recall Mogambo paying a rediculously high show price the day a Lukas 1-5 shot (Ketoh?) ran off the board in (I think) the Champagne.
I\'ll save the 80\'s discussion for that day that I\'m hanging out in the old guys\' bar on the corner, drinking my old style.
as far as silver charm\'s crop, I am of the suspicion that this bunch made an impression on you because they produced aome top older horses, or in deputy commander\'s case, ran well against older (in the cup).
in this respect, you are absolutely right that they have done more as older horses than smarty\'s peers.
I\'m not really sure what it is that smarty\'s peers should have done up to now to garner a higher score from the french judge.
judging by the #\'s --- which is how *I* would evaluate them, smarty\'s crop looks just as good, if not better than most.
how these fast 3 yo #\'s will translate into older handicap horses, I have no idea, but there\'s always hope that a few will make it.
the fact is, most of smarty\'s peers haven\'t won anything so far because smarty kept beating them.
the few that managed to win the races of note that smarty didn\'t gobble up --- purge, a couple zitos, lion heart, were pretty much all handled by smarty, w/the exception of his belmont loss, in which he ran second.
these are all good horses, judging by the #\'s --- they just ran into a horse that ran faster.
I wouldn\'t know what criteria a horse must meet for hall of fame acceptance, but I think smarty\'s resume was a little short, regardless of his peers.
I don\'t think simply winning the derby should merit inclusion --- however, had he won that last one, I probably would have to give him my imaginary vote, despite the short career.
If we\'re going to bring 1986 into the equation, we can\'t forget the horse that should\'ve been Horse of the Year in 1986: Manila. IMO, he won the best edition of the BC Turf, beating future champion Theatrical, British superhorse Dancing Brave and champion filly Estrapade.