Anybody have a theory as to what Rosario was (not) thinking?
I think the guy is an awful rider and also stupid. So the following is not intended to defend him in anyway. I bet Roca Rojo and was very disappointed with the result, and I blame Rosario.
Putting all that aside for a moment, sixty percent of the horses in the race where Chad Brown. With that many horses in the race, there is the risk that some horses can interfere with other horses in the same stable. Two of the horses were favored and Roca Rojo was not. Am thinking it is possible there was an instruction to have Roca Rojo not do anything that could blow it for the other horses and just stay out of everybody\'s way and run at the end.
Again, ride was terrible, but instruction may have been do not compromise the top two choices.
This is pure speculation.
I was very disappointed with the result and I think Rosario stinks as a jockey. However, it was possible he was more worried about his relationship with Chad Brown than he was about disappointing the people who bet on his mount.
Not sure I buy the stinks part. Rosario had three winners on the card, and a good heads up ride in the 13th.
They all stink when needed. As you said, it\'s defiantly a problem when a trainer has three in the race. Lots of Browns runners \'drop out\' early , but this one took a bit long to get into contention.
In my opinion Castellano gave Antonoe a odd ride.
Boscar Obarra Wrote:
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> Not sure I buy the stinks part. Rosario had three
> winners on the card, and a good heads up ride in
> the 13th.
>
> They all stink when needed. As you said, it\'s
> defiantly a problem when a trainer has three in
> the race. Lots of Browns runners \'drop out\' early
> , but this one took a bit long to get into
> contention.
No jockey gives 100% great rides or 100% terrible rides. It is all a matter of consistency and reliability. Also, some horses are less ride sensitive than others (e.g. some horses are just going to run their race no matter who is on top whereas some horses are extremely dependent on the jockey to find a good trip). Jockeys are going to win some races.
When I am handicapping, if a horse needs a good trip to be competitive, I evaluate what I think is going to happen. For horses ridden by Joel Rosario, I elevate the chances that he is going to do something boneheaded because I have been burned enough times by him. I do not very often find myself regretting downgrading his mounts because I did not think he could produce the trip necessary. That doesn\'t mean I throw out his mounts every time. It is a judicious process. In general in my experience, I find I am more likely to regret using his mounts than to regret discarding his mounts.
I figure that filly ran the last 4 1/2f in right around 50. Whoever\'s idea it was to ride her like that-- and it might not be his-- it was nuts. Went the LAST 16th in 5 and change seconds.
ROCA ROJO (IRE) got checked after
lumbering her way out of the gate, was dragged by the rider over to the hedge, loped along as the trailer for six furlongs, saving ground and pulling hard on
the left side of the bit, responded with a display of acceleration when given her cue leaving the five-sixteenths pole, angled six wide into the stretch,
straightened away and came home with solid, but belatedly energy.
Philywheel
She got dragged back to last, way behind the nearest horse, and behind a slow pace (considering the grass was rock hard). Still kept well behind the others until halfway around the turn, for no reason. He gave her no shot. Ridiculous.
Rosario killed me twice on turf Friday. He won on Forever but I wouldn\'t give him credit for that.
TGJB Wrote:
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> She got dragged back to last, way behind the
> nearest horse, and behind a slow pace (considering
> the grass was rock hard). Still kept well behind
> the others until halfway around the turn, for no
> reason. He gave her no shot. Ridiculous.
Absolutely. But you see this all the time on the grass, from many different riders. Could be Rosario screws it up more often than some , but in general I think he wins too often for there to be an edge is discounting his mounts.
If there\'s some stat that disproves that, would be interesting to see it.
I bet her too, and I\'ve never been on horseback, but I\'m guessing this wasn\'t all Rosario. The mare gave Geroux fits in the Just A Game. I assumed that the switch to Rosario was to see if his hands would fit her better (a la Beach Patrol). I thought they might send her, but when they didn\'t I assumed that Rosario was under instructions to take her back. Unfortunately, once he got her in hand, she was far behind the field. After that, he may have been afraid that once he gave her some rein, she would try to do too much. Watch what happened to Geroux in the early stages of the Just A Game. You can see that Rosario kept Roca Rojo under a hold down the backstretch.
Of course, there is some common ownership with Lady Eli, so beating her may not have been a high priority.
So this is the second straight year where a graded stake race at Saratoga has
come up smelling a little fishy due to an uncoupled Chad Brown entry.
Remember in the 2016 Sword Dancer, Flintshire came up the hedge to win going
away. David Grenig\'s DRF account of the Sword Dancer was as follows:
\"Flintshire combined his own brilliance and an assist from a stablemate to
record his second straight victory in Saturday\'s Grade 1 Sword Dancer...
[Flintshire] got a big assist from Aaron Gryder on the pacemaker Inordinate,
who moved off the inside, creating room for Flintshire...\"
(Personal note: I was at the Spa for the 2016 Sword Dancer, thought Flintshire
would have won the race with or without Gryder\'s assistance).
It is bad enough that a graded turf stake at a frequently run distance comes up
with only five starters (I do not know how many were originally nominated).
When three of the entries are from one barn, and run uncoupled, the potential
for smelliness will always exist, especially where, as here, Lady Eli and Rocco
Rojo shared common ownership, each being owned in part by Sheep Pond Partners.
I know it smacks of bad sportsmanship, but it is not hard to imagine a scenario
where Rosario is told not to do anything to interfere with the featured
performer.
Going into Monday\'s races, Chad Brown and Todd Pletcher are locked in a battle
for leading trainer honors. Brown is 33/125; TAP is 32/120; no other trainer
has saddled more than 82 runners. Let us not forget that these two accounted
for all three Triple Crown events this year.
I have mentioned before the intangible advantages operations on the large scale
of Chad and TAP enjoy. Perhaps the greatest advantage they enjoy is nearly
unlimited stall space at whichever NYRA venue is open for racing. It would not
surprise me to hear that CB and TAP each had between 80-120 stalls at Saratoga.
Not only do these outfits enjoy large stall allocations, but the way these
large outfits utilize the stalls are not subjected to the same scrutiny as the
lower profile outfits might be. Stabling layups and 2YOs not ready to race are
advantages undoubtedly granted to the BIG outfits; if a lower profile trainer
tried to use the Spa as a 2YO training center or a rehab facility, or shipped
out of NYRA to run, this trainer would likely be under constant pressure from
the racing office, pressure not likely applied to TAP and Chad.
In olden days, trainers at NYRA were limited to 40 stalls;* query whether
capping the number of stalls allocated to CB and TAP and others would result in
more trainer diversity at the Spa, and whether this would improve the quality
of Racing?
Getting back to coupled entries and field size, there is no reason to believe
that mandating all entries with common ownership or saddled by the same trainer
run coupled would eliminate any of the (alleged) unsportsmanlike conduct in
last years Sword Dancer or this years Ballston Spa; to the contrary, it would
somehow sanitize it. Of course, if Roca Rosario was coupled with Lady Eli the
price of both runners would have been reduced.
In my opinion, the greatest damage done by permitting uncoupled entries is that
it allows the Racing Secretary/Stakes Coordinator to become complacent. If the
three Brown entrants were required to run coupled the Racing Secretary would be
confronted with a Ballston Spa with four wagering interests before the scratch
of an entrant which may never have intended to run anyway. Given this short
field scenario, it is possible that NYRA would have had to work more diligently
to recruit more runners for this race.
------
* Woody Stephens was for 15 or so years NYRA\'s dominant trainer when it came to
stakes performers and 2YOs; he did it with a stall allocation capped at 40. But
Stephens trained mostly homebreds (ie Hickory Tree and others) which were
trained on farms. Most of these homebreds had the benefit of serious foundation
built on these farms. Many of these young runners were only two or three works
away (and possibly some paddock/gate schooling) away from their first start. In
today\'s game, auction purchases seem to outnumber homebreds. The owner of a big
ticket auction purchase probably wants this horse to go directly to the
racetrack, as does the trainer, who collects no day money if the youngster goes
to a training farm to complete preparations for their first race.
Not to mention Ortiz\' ride on Money Multiplier last year.
Karma\'s a bitch and was ecstatic to see him steamed after the Sword Dancer as I strolled to the window to cash on the Albertrani horse.
Btw: thanks TG!!!
Good Luck,
Joe B
BitPlayer Wrote:
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> I bet her too, and I\'ve never been on horseback,
> but I\'m guessing this wasn\'t all Rosario. The
> mare gave Geroux fits in the Just A Game. I
> assumed that the switch to Rosario was to see if
> his hands would fit her better (a la Beach
> Patrol). I thought they might send her, but when
> they didn\'t I assumed that Rosario was under
> instructions to take her back. Unfortunately,
> once he got her in hand, she was far behind the
> field. After that, he may have been afraid that
> once he gave her some rein, she would try to do
> too much. Watch what happened to Geroux in the
> early stages of the Just A Game. You can see that
> Rosario kept Roca Rojo under a hold down the
> backstretch.
>
> Of course, there is some common ownership with
> Lady Eli, so beating her may not have been a high
> priority.
Lady Eli will be for sale in 2 months. she\'s already entered in the catalogue. Good point.
Cannot fathom LADY ELI having lost a nickle of sales price had she been beaten.
Would also add the conspiracy theorist\'s are out to lunch with their prattle.
As for the race, no question the talented boy, first time racing the Grade II winner had heavy hands early after the unfortunate break, \"Roca\" is a nice mare, who is much better on giving ground, which wasn\'t available. Yet where is the pre-race evidence she was ever going to threaten a five time grade one winner?
bbb
Where is the evidence? I think you\'re posing that question in the wrong forum...
She was the fastest horse in the race and had 3 other efforts that made her tough on Saturday (2 of which came on firm turf).
Anyone who doesn\'t think that ride compromised her chances isn\'t paying attention.
Owners are no dummies obviously. They know what they have (or don\'t have)
bellsbendboy Wrote:
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> Cannot fathom LADY ELI having lost a nickle of
> sales price had she been beaten.
>
> Would also add the conspiracy theorist\'s are out
> to lunch with their prattle.
>
> As for the race, no question the talented boy,
> first time racing the Grade II winner had heavy
> hands early after the unfortunate break, \"Roca\" is
> a nice mare, who is much better on giving ground,
> which wasn\'t available. Yet where is the pre-race
> evidence she was ever going to threaten a five
> time grade one winner?
>
> bbb
Is this comment serious or a joke? If it is a joke, apologies for responding incorrectly.
Citing that 60% of the horses in a race are coming from the same barn as evidence that the barn\'s instructions could differ than if the horses were from separate barns is out to lunch and prattle?
Losing the G1 Matriarch by a nose to Miss Temple City on firm turf at equal weights (2 months after MTC beat the boys in the G1 Shadwell) is not evidence of any G1 quality?
If you answer yes to either, how exactly is it possible to have any discussion with you?
Lot of posts from people, some claiming to have even bet on Roca Rojo. Mostly not mentioning the most important fact in the race.
Not sure what race people were watching but there was no UNFORTUNATE start. The horse broke fine. Rosario, hack that he often is, pulled hard on the horse two strides out of the gate, yanking the horse well off the pace. That seemingly awkward stride about 4 strides out of the gate, was not a bad step or a bobble, it was purely jockey error. He pulled on the horse very hard.
After all, when you have a horse with a modicum of early positional speed and you have a 5 horse field with absolutely no speed in it, what else would you do with a horse that breaks alert but pull his head off, yanking him 10-12 lengths off a slow pace.
The replay is all over youtube/bloodhorse, etc. Watch it. Just a purely ridiculous move by Rosario.
jimbo66 Wrote:
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> Lot of posts from people, some claiming to have
> even bet on Roca Rojo. Mostly not mentioning the
> most important fact in the race.
>
> Not sure what race people were watching but there
> was no UNFORTUNATE start. The horse broke fine.
> Rosario, hack that he often is, pulled hard on the
> horse two strides out of the gate, yanking the
> horse well off the pace. That seemingly awkward
> stride about 4 strides out of the gate, was not a
> bad step or a bobble, it was purely jockey error.
> He pulled on the horse very hard.
>
> After all, when you have a horse with a modicum of
> early positional speed and you have a 5 horse
> field with absolutely no speed in it, what else
> would you do with a horse that breaks alert but
> pull his head off, yanking him 10-12 lengths off a
> slow pace.
>
> The replay is all over youtube/bloodhorse, etc.
> Watch it. Just a purely ridiculous move by
> Rosario.
Jimbo,
You are absolutely correct.
Is it possible he did this because that is what he was told to do??
jimbo66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Lot of posts from people, some claiming to have
> even bet on Roca Rojo. Mostly not mentioning the
> most important fact in the race.
>
> Not sure what race people were watching but there
> was no UNFORTUNATE start. The horse broke fine.
> Rosario, hack that he often is, pulled hard on the
> horse two strides out of the gate, yanking the
> horse well off the pace. That seemingly awkward
> stride about 4 strides out of the gate, was not a
> bad step or a bobble, it was purely jockey error.
> He pulled on the horse very hard.
>
> After all, when you have a horse with a modicum of
> early positional speed and you have a 5 horse
> field with absolutely no speed in it, what else
> would you do with a horse that breaks alert but
> pull his head off, yanking him 10-12 lengths off a
> slow pace.
>
> The replay is all over youtube/bloodhorse, etc.
> Watch it. Just a purely ridiculous move by
> Rosario.
I think there is uniformity of thinking that the ride was bad. Haven\'t seen anybody defend it. I think the debates here are about the cause not the effect -- i.e. was it (a) bad choices by Rosario or (b) bad instructions from Brown to Rosario. I do agree with you that the start was fine and the jockey decided the check the horse for no apparent reason after the fine break....but even the commenter on here who is ludicrous and called the break unfortunate criticized Rosario\'s heavy hands in the race.
That lonely voice does not defend Rosario\'s ride, but rather insanely argues (i) anybody who thinks it could have possibly been Trainer\'s instructions is an out to lunch conspiracy theorist and (ii) Roca Rojo did not appear good enough before the race to think she was going to win even with a par ride, so, if you bet her, consider yourself undeservedly lucky that the ride mattered (Please note -- I do not think this, just reporting somebody else\'s replusive argument that is on here).
That dissenter is fairly difficult to understand, but as I read the comment, he/she seems to be suggesting that even if the ride was bad, the bettors on Roca Rojo do not deserve any sympathy because they were unreasonable to think she would be good enough to matter anyway. If I have correctly interpreted the comment, it seems like an odd way to join a discussion about a bad jockey ride.
P-Dub,
I think it certainly is possible. But even if asked to take a horse off the pace, the MANNER in which Rosario did was incredulous to me. He literally pulled him so hard that it looked like the horse bobbled or took a bad step. jockeys ease horses off the pace as per instructions seemingly pretty regularly.
What Rosario did was a butcher job.
Who knows, not saying he could have won or anything like that. Just strange. This horse ran his top sitting second, right off a legit speed horse in the CD race. Why it would be brilliant to be 10 off, instructions or not, is well beyond me.
Jim
jimbo66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> P-Dub,
>
> I think it certainly is possible. But even if
> asked to take a horse off the pace, the MANNER in
> which Rosario did was incredulous to me. He
> literally pulled him so hard that it looked like
> the horse bobbled or took a bad step. jockeys
> ease horses off the pace as per instructions
> seemingly pretty regularly.
>
> What Rosario did was a butcher job.
>
> Who knows, not saying he could have won or
> anything like that. Just strange. This horse ran
> his top sitting second, right off a legit speed
> horse in the CD race. Why it would be brilliant
> to be 10 off, instructions or not, is well beyond
> me.
>
> Jim
Most likely answer -- it was both, bad instructions, and bad execution of bad instructions. Unfortunately, in this case, the double negative did not make a positive. It is interesting that a jockey can be given bad instructions and botch them...and there can be two different results of that ....a good ride or a really terrible ride. In this case, we got the latter
BBB - it\'s clear your view on racing is different than those that visit the board. When you post here you typically get a hostile reaction, and rightfully so. You post your insights after the fact, you site rationale that you know carries no weight here, etc. what is the motivation? Do you have nothing better to do with your time?
Bet
Certainly my views on handicapping are different, especially on grass. Labeling the reactions hostile is a bit strongly worded given most of us are 60 somethings and collectively have wagered for most of our lives. Combining rationale and insights, I would offer once anyone that stops learning in this challenging endeavor; your ROI will bear the brunt of certain reality.
A possible future insight might be Peter Miller\'s slow start at Delmar. PM is mega-talented and has at least a pair for every class in the short book. He trains away from clockers, will drop one off the planet, bets, ( two years ago on a single bet, which he admitted, proudly, he financed both of his young daughters college educations.
My assertion. Delmar has been deeper this year and horses with a prior effort over the surface move forward. PM in approximately a hundred starts, this meet, ten wins. A perennial very high percentage conditioner, has had 30 some horses finish second or third. Sequence cappers not including PM the last week, regardless of figures, beware!
bbb
bellsbendboy Wrote
>
> As for the race, no question the talented boy,
The talented boy, otherwise known as jockey Joel Rosario seemed to be the talk of the jocks room.
As most locals know Monday night is jocks night out in the Spa. They can even eat a meal as Tuesday is a no flip day..... Heck a couple of them were even spotted having dinner in Jerry Browns Caroline St headquarters last night. It used to be Longfellows for jockey karaoke now Lake Local is the Monday night preference.
I had a chat with a pair younger riders last night one of which has a spot in the top ten money earners YTD. I got quite the WOW from both when I inquired about their thoughts on \"the talented boys\" ride. A quote from one was \"he hates to ride, he only wants to ride 2-3 good ones a day\" that may explain his HOF rides vs the Finger Lakes ones from day to day that create a lot of buzz. Especially here in the land of ground loss!
This was definitely among the most puzzling rides I\'ve ever seen especially in a 5 horse field.
Note to BBB:
Jockeys are human beings that have names. I guess if you take the train to Del Mar you call all the attendants George like they did 100 years ago.
A real CLASS act is the boards resident competent capper.
FD
P-Dub:
Ditto JJ\'s ride on Antone. This horse\'s best trips are chasing the pace?
I\'ve seen enough and will now simply avoid the Chad Brown multiple entry races.
Good Luck,
Joe B.
I wonder how long some lesser trainer at some lesser circuit would get away with running 3 of 5 horses uncoupled with these strange moves, before a boycott was called for?
FrankD. Wrote:
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> Note to BBB:
> Jockeys are human beings that have names. I guess
> if you take the train to Del Mar you call all the
> attendants George like they did 100 years ago.
> A real CLASS act is the boards resident competent
> capper.
>
> FD
Hear, hear.
wouldn\'t the owner of the horse have something to say about that ride, especially if he had to play second fiddle to the other chad horse
RICH Wrote:
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> wouldn\'t the owner of the horse have something to
> say about that ride, especially if he had to play
> second fiddle to the other chad horse
I think that Lady Eli and Roca Rojo have some common ownership (but not entirely). Also, even if they didn\'t, I think the owner\'s only choice is to stay with Chad or not stay with Chad.