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General Category => Ask the Experts => Topic started by: P-Dub on June 03, 2017, 02:49:55 PM

Title: Belmont 9
Post by: P-Dub on June 03, 2017, 02:49:55 PM
The D\'Amato horse at 9/1 looks like a pretty square price. A little slow but not by much and draws a good post.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: hellersorr on June 03, 2017, 03:07:33 PM
The winner is Oscar Performance.  This is a horse of whom I wanted to post a TG question before the race but I would have been asking for info that I hadn\'t paid for.  

Here\'s the question, and maybe there isn\'t an obvious answer for the TG crowd but what the hell:  On the sheets, does this horse look like a typical rounding-into-form 3rd-off-the-layoff play, or does he look like a horse who doesn\'t look likely today to return to his juvenile glory?

I realize odds are important but I\'m putting odds to the side for this question.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: TGJB on June 03, 2017, 03:48:38 PM
Dead rail last time.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: hellersorr on June 03, 2017, 03:59:41 PM
Doh!  Forgot all about the dead turf rail Derby Day.  (Although that brings up the question of muscle soreness from racing on deep turf.)

But let\'s say there was no dead turf rail that day:  What would the horse\'s sheets line look like?
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: milwmike on June 03, 2017, 04:18:49 PM
You can see the sheet in ROTW section - Derby day info is available.

To my eye, I would not have predicted a return to his 2 yo figs.  And with the slow pace and saving ground, my guess is he still didn\'t get to last year.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: jimbo66 on June 03, 2017, 06:05:04 PM
Hellersorr,

Do you have a sheet in front of you when you ask this question?

If you do, it is a horrendous question.  The horse finished last year, pairing 5\'s.  He has come back this year and ran an 8, a bad figure, and then backed up to a 14 last time.

If you discount the \"dead rail\", the horse is deceased and can\'t be bet in any way in any slot.  

Now, he did have excuses in both races, not just the dead rail, so today was the decision day \"deceased or valid excuses\".  Turns out it was the latter.

But 8 and then 14, with tops of 5, is not \"rounding into form\", it is \"falling off a cliff\".
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: TGJB on June 03, 2017, 06:06:25 PM
Relax, Jimbo.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: P-Dub on June 03, 2017, 06:19:47 PM
jimbo66 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hellersorr,
>
> Do you have a sheet in front of you when you ask
> this question?
>

He said \"on the sheets\".

So its 1-1 in regards to stupid questions.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: TreadHead on June 03, 2017, 06:25:58 PM
Bal-aBali also won a stakes today off the negative CD rail race
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: hellersorr on June 03, 2017, 06:27:14 PM
I use \"sheets\" referring to TG graphs, as opposed to The Sheets (Ragozin).  If there\'s a more appropriate term, let me know - I\'ll be happy to use it.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: hellersorr on June 03, 2017, 06:34:27 PM
No, Jimbo, I do NOT have the sheet in front of me.  But even if I DID have the sheet in front of me, I would have asked the exact same question.  I was intrigued by Oscar Performance and was curious about the orthodox TG read (if there was one).

I ask a LOT of questions.  If a person got paid for asking questions, I\'d be a gazillionaire.  Tragically, this is not the case.

Here\'s another question:  Why do you so consistently . . . ah, never mind.  Life\'s too short.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: Tavasco on June 03, 2017, 06:47:06 PM
Gud Poynt

I was wondering who in the world would bet this horse? 7/2? Someone knew something I didn\'t. Again.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: P-Dub on June 03, 2017, 06:57:18 PM
hellersorr Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> I use \"sheets\" referring to TG graphs, as opposed
> to The Sheets (Ragozin).  If there\'s a more
> appropriate term, let me know - I\'ll be happy to
> use it.


Sheets is fine, I wasn\'t referring to your use of the word sheets.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: P-Dub on June 03, 2017, 07:00:27 PM
Tavasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Gud Poynt
>
> I was wondering who in the world would bet this
> horse? 7/2? Someone knew something I didn\'t.
> Again.

He was a logical contender. Not sure anyone \"knew\" anything, he had excuses for the 2 poor performances this year. An off slow and a dead rail. Excuse those 2 and he looked as good as any.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: Tavasco on June 03, 2017, 07:21:55 PM
P-Dub

Smiling, Whaa... Excuses?? Two in a row. OK as many views as there are pairs of eyes.

I excused his Kee race when I bet him @ CD. No more excuses from me. That\'s like saying the Cavaliers don\'t practice enough @ at sea level.

In any event he looks to have run a new top imo.  Now what?
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: P-Dub on June 03, 2017, 08:11:20 PM
Tavasco Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> P-Dub
>
> Smiling, Whaa... Excuses?? Two in a row. OK as
> many views as there are pairs of eyes.
>
> I excused his Kee race when I bet him @ CD. No
> more excuses from me. That\'s like saying the
> Cavaliers don\'t practice enough @ at sea level.
>
> In any event he looks to have run a new top imo.
> Now what?

Its not close to the same thing don\'t be ridiculous. The Cleveland analogy.

Off slow and a dead rail are 2 legitimate excuses. The dead rail was discussed here for 3 weeks.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: Boscar Obarra on June 03, 2017, 09:45:11 PM
I\'m shocked no one has mentioned the LASIX OFF angle, after only 1 start with it.

  Very unusual to go on/off like that , and its possible that last dismal effort was a bad reaction to it, as well as the dead rail.

   OP was exceptional as a 2yo.

   I\'m missing all the fat pitches lately, and I think this was one of them.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: jbelfior on June 04, 2017, 09:40:44 AM
I think Ticonderoga wins the race if he doesn\'t get shut off and has to alter when the 9 bore in around the 1/16th pole.


Good Luck,
Joe B
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: belmont3 on June 05, 2017, 05:03:31 AM
Joe,

Perhaps.
OP came home in 33.70 for final 3/8ths.

22.72 and then 10.98 final 1/8th.

Pretty difficult to close into those fractions.

I don\'t do the race designations but here are some comparisons on fractions
 

Other turf races on Saturday card:

3 on Inner and 3 on outer turf courses

2nd) 1 3/8 maiden         24.49 49.84 114.97  (inner)
4th) 1 mile allowance:    23.90 48.16 113.44  (outer)
6th) 1 1/16 allowance     25.25 49.60 114.11  (inner)
7th) 7f maiden clm        23.3  46.37 110.28  (outer)
9th) 1/1/8 stake          24.43 49.92 114.74  (inner)
10th 1 1/16 maiden        23.41 47.46 111.97  (outer)

Only watched late replays for most of the Saturday Card.
Would agree Ticonderoga was \'going best\' at the end.
Race dynamics favored OP once he cleared early and controlled fractions.
On CD 5/6 dead rail, race dynamics (dead rail) was against OP.
The favorite Good Samaritan also ran 5/6 but off the dead rail.

Bob
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: jbelfior on June 05, 2017, 05:28:47 AM
Bob:

Tough to argue against those numbers.
My pain was needing him in 2 hole to complete what I thought to be an easy exacta play. Nothing easy in this game as we all continue to find out.

Ticonderoga was about 2 lengths off of OP and motoring when forced to check and alter. Could have caught OP in my opinion---it would have been tight.  

On to bigger and better this week.


Good Luck,
Joe B.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: Boscar Obarra on June 05, 2017, 06:28:00 PM
Apparently no one was impressed with the  lasix angle ,even after I brought it up.

Trainer mentioned it today. Said he was extra dull in the paddock that day so he reversed the lasix .
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: Wamsutta on June 06, 2017, 09:23:00 AM
No no ….. you might have something there ….. interesting comment from the trainer because Maggie commented that she thought he was calmer, less wound up than in prior starts ….. Saturday was the second time I\'d seen him in the flesh, the first time being for the Pilgrim last October ….. he was washed out that day but in fairness it was a muggy day ….. Saturday he was relatively calm and not sweaty ….. definitely rated more kindly Saturday once they got to the backstretch …. presumably he\'ll point to the Belmont Derby …… be interesting to see …… he doesn\'t seem to want to sit behind others ….. presumably Coolmore will send something over for that …… maybe the 5th out of the Prix du Jockey Club, him being by War Front …… Willie Mullins did his homework with the jockey bookings for the Gold Cup ….. fun job I\'m sure for JB doing the figuring for Clondaw Warrior and his 3 mile hurdling form ….. did run well at Arlington last year though …. Wicklow Brave the high weight but if he can sit forward and not be too wide, will take a real SOB to pass him
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: Niall on June 06, 2017, 02:52:59 PM
Red Cardinal a legit Melbourne Cup horse. If he doesnt have too much to do when they straighten out... That said, winning the Irish St Leger is no joke. There\'s your exacta.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: Wamsutta on June 08, 2017, 10:38:16 AM
Apparently https://www.racingpost.com/news/international/mullins-pair-head-four-strong-european-challenge/288752 the top 3 in the Belmont Gold Cup qualify for the Melbourne Cup, so some of the others are aiming for that as well. That has surely helped to improve the field, but I hadn\'t seen it reported anywhere else.
Title: Re: Belmont 9
Post by: Focus959 on June 09, 2017, 04:38:22 AM
Here is an excellent scouting report on the Euros: https://www.twinspires.com/blog/2017/6/9/international-scouting-report-belmont-gold-cup