Yes its True.
While it may be difficult for some to understand, Secretariat raced a generation ago and is nothing more than a story in a history book to alot of people. For those of us who were lucky enough to see Big Red, we can truly appreciate how good he was. But all of you others who are just like me I have a question??
Tell me how do you know how good Man o\'War was.
You can only go by what you read or heard.
The thing with Secretariat was there was a large build-up from the end of his two year-old season and on through the Triple Crown. The suspense was building everyday and Big Red delivered, in the Belmont did he ever. People traveled to see him at Claiborne Farm and still to this day visit his grave. Take a fifteen year-old young man there and he will probably have a difficult time appreciating what he is looking at. Poppa won\'t.
If Smarty Jones wins the Belmont in fine fashion there will be NEW RACING FANS who will say \"Smarty Jones was the Best Horse I Ever Saw.\"
They will probably be telling the truth.
There is a Funny Cide to every story. Would Funny Cide have taken the triple crown if he hadn\'t stumbled coming out of the gate. And even despite that setback didn\'t he make it back to 1st only to break when the whip was used. FUNNY CIDE was a much better dark horse than Smarty. THE hype is better but they aren\'t hyping the horse they are hyping the bucks associated with the Total Package. Not the Mention SANTOS was HOT HOT HOT winning all day long at the Belmont.
Hard to tell if you are talking War Emblem or Funny Cide.
In any event Smarty has one quality War Emblem didn\'t have, the ability to rate and kick. As far as both of those horses go Smarty was faster at two, is faster and three, and most important of all:
HE HAS NEVER LOST.
Not even Secretariat or Man o\'War could claim that.
He\'ll get beat sometime and it might be Belmont Day, but I\'m a sucker and I\'ll be betting him in Tris and Supers again. He\'s been good to me, He can\'t race enough to lose what he\'s already won for me.
face it,this horse/freak is running lights
out and in his own zone, with no competition.
lion hearted already has shown the wear
and tear of battle attempting to compete
with s.j. on the early and mid parts of the
derby and preakness and the balance of
opposition simply can\'t close on a horse,who,in his last race was not
being urged in the stretch and missing
the track \"record\" by @ 2 seconds.
superlatives aside, this unbeaten horse at different tracks,distances,surfaces,has
done nothing wrong,and/or everything
right,which can not be stated for any of his
competition.
this romantic tale ,will, god bless this team,be proven once again on june 5th
I see where Ron Turcotte is predicting that Smarty will win the Bel \"by at least 25 lengths\" & is also saying that Stevens\' comparison to Secretariat makes sense. I also see that Servis is saying that he fully expects Smarty to take another step forward in the race. Even if they are both right, Little Red can never replace Big Red as far as I\'m concerned.
Thirty plus yrs later, I still have a high definition mental image of most of what happened on the days he won the Preak & Bel. But I also know a little bit about how such memories are formed, & have no doubt that mine are influenced by the fact that I would have been an enthusiastic participant if there had been organized cheering similar to what I saw Sat. Odds,overlays, weights,distances,track bias,speed figures,pace scenario,post position,etc. When it came to Big Red, none of it mattered, sort of like the young guy in line after the last race. He was wearing a Smarty hat & shirt, & sheepishly showed me a $200 win ticket, saying that he wished he had had enough courage to parlay all of his derby winnings, as if not doing so might be a sign that he did not have complete & unqualified faith in his hero. If Smarty crushes the competition on 6/5, & 30 yrs from now that fan or someone like him takes the position that Smarty was the greatest horse to ever race, who\'s to say, with certainty, that he\'s wrong?
Note for JB. Is there anyway for you to make a number for SEC\'S Belmont\'s win from the archieve info.Just curious.
No. And furthermore, it would have been next to impossible doing it then-- probably the only 2 turn race on the day, 5 or 6 horse field, one of them breaks down early, all but 1 don\'t fire. It is worth keeping in mind that they were running over a MUCH faster track than now-- more clay, less sand, 3 inch cushion (4 now), and it was extremely fast that week in 73-- a number of track records were set or tied that meet. I wouldn\'t know how to begin to assess that figure, especially now.
No one in that Belmont other than Secretariat ever won another race of any kind, not even a claimer.
There have been a lot of good posts today and I don\'t mean to push some down at the benefit of another string.
Chuckles all you needed to see was Smartys dad Elusive Quality ship down from Payson Park to Gulfstream Park for trainer Billy Mott and run 7 furlongs in the Gulfstream Park Hdcp. The Track Record may still stand and I swear to-you-know-who Pat Day never moved a muscle the entire trip, that was run in about 1:20 flat. He was a freak, not very sound, but when right A FREAK.
The reason I brought this string back up was that I felt that the Post by Mall was too damn good to go away.
I got chills down my spine on Belmont Day when I heard track announcer Chick Hearn bark: \" Secretariat is moving like a tremendous machine.\"
Mall I have read your post three times now and I got those same chills each and every time.
Truely a Great Post from a Great Horse Racing Fan.
I believe you mean Chick Anderson, Silver Charm.
For what its worth the guys in the black hats posted Secretariat\'s sheet on their website a few years ago. I didn\'t download it to file but did save a printout. His Belmont number was a '0' with either a small '2' or '3' next to the zero. It\'s a little fuzzy with the aged sheet and old scribbling. What I found interesting was the same \'0-2\'or\'0-3\' was also assigned to both the Derby & The Arlington Invitational run just three weeks after The Belmont. His Preakness was a \'3\' something,again a bit fuzzy.I assume Ragozin was the only one in their house doing the numbers in those days and since the torch has since been handed off to others it might be dangerous to try & compare a Ragozin 1973 sheet with a 2004 version let alone TG. If you\'re tempted to project an approximate TG rating for Secretariat, JB\'s scale seems to run around 3 points or so faster then theirs but as he has often stated he splits his 1 turn & 2 turn variants and they don't so we're back to apples & oranges again which brings up a question for JB. If there is a 'marginal' difference in your 1 and 2 turn variants whatever your definition of 'marginal' might be will you still insist on using 2 variants to make that fine distinction or can you satisfy yourself the difference is insignificant enough that you'll tie all the races together with a common variant?
Thomas,that\'s a very nice post. Iv\'e always felt that BIG RED\'S performance in the belmont was the fastest race I have ever seen and I still think so, notwithstanding the fast surface that day.I\'ve also heard and looked at the 2-3 point variation between TG and Rags but don\'t take that to the bank, there have been occasions where the spread is much wider,but not on big races.
Smarty and Seretariat do have one thing in common, and it was alluded to earlier, that being they both had a bunch of garbage cans to beat. Still, they both ran real fast doing it. And that\'s what is most impressive.
Re 1 and 2 turn variants-- I\'m running to catch a plane, but the short answer is I never tie the two together.
MO,
I respect your opinion but I have to disagree if you are saying that Sham was a \"garbage can.\" He was certainly one of the best horses never to win a triple crown race running the second fastest derby ever when finishing second to Secretariat and then a very game second in the Preakness. He just happened to be chasing the best at his best. In the Belmont he finally cracked under the pressure of the big red machine but not until he had battled through blazing early fractions to help push Secretariat into a record-smashing performance and into the history books.
If Sham had come along in any other year, he might have won the Triple Crown...
Chris
P.S. IMO Rock Hard Ten does not look like a \"garbage can\" either.
Chris,
Rock Hard Ten, Lion Heart, Imperialism, The Cliff\'s Edge, an improving Eddington. These are all good horses. I think Lion Heart is gonna be a Terror at 9 marks. Thats where they should be running him. He\'s gonna be this years Peace Rules if they manage him properly. These are not garbage cans, they are trying to catch a horse that can run faster than a negative 4, thats the problem.
I\'ll tell ya a good horse. Jerry already knows. Purge is a helluva good horse.
CtC
Jerry,
If my memory serves, Beyers did a retro-calculation of 150 for Secretariat in the Belmont. That would be what, neg. 10 in TG figs? But as you point out--150 is conjectural.
Here\'s my take on Smarty Jones. He could have won the derby by more. Stu saved as much horse as he could and he didn\'t have to. He won for fun. He could have won by 10. He wasn\'t on is game in the Preakness and still won by more than 11. In the Belmont, see how far ahead he is after a mile and double it. This horse doesn\'t tire. The only way this horse gets beat is if he\'s just gets bored with winning. Can\'t wait to see him run against some real competition in the fall.
Fact is, the horse is a freak with a little help. First lasix for the Derby I wonder why? Smarty Jones as well as every horse of his generation will always be tainted by the actions of the trainers who give their horses a little help.
Cozzene
I don\'t think its fair to say that Smarty\'s accomplishments are tainted by the fact that Servis has given him Lasix. Its a new era in racing with a vast majority of the horses recieving performance inhancing drugs. His dominance, using lasix, against other horses using lasix is no less impressive than the superstars of yesteryear dominating their rivals without the use of such drugs. It\'s all relative to the competiotion. It\'s not like Smarty had Lasix and no one else did. To compare today\'s horses and those of previous generations is like comparing apples to oranges. Under your assumption, the achievemnets of Lance Armstrong, or the like, are tainted by the progress in performance medicine?
I\'ve watched a lot of horses go on Lasix and generally it makes them a little better. Sometimes it makes them sick, so that was a danger giving it to Smarty, but it is allowed. His dosage is small and if it is helping him the concept behind lasix is at least partially humanitarian. He\'s just been better than his contemporaries in every race. I knew little of Servis before Smarty Jones and it might be premature to say, but I like him and I get the sense he\'s a darn good man.
So, cheating is ok because everyone cheats? That logic is what is destroying our society. Oral sex isn\'t sex so I didn\'t have sex with Monica. Right.
Lasix is used to hide other drugs; to think otherwise is to be naive.
The accomplishments of every athlete in the last 15 years and maybe the last 25 are all tainted by illegal drugs.
Why do I care? Because handicapping decisions are affected by the use of drugs. Speed figures and pattern analysis become less revelant the more drugs are used. If I did not bet on horse racing I would not in any way be affected by this issue; I would not care; but because I risk considerable amounts of money when I do bet on the horses I want to increase MY advantage as much as possible. Hay, Oats, and Water, that is in my best interest; as well as the best interests of everyone else who reads, or posts on this board.
Torn biceps, detached triceps, hamstrings that never heal. I would bet my house that no one who reads this board has ever met anyone who is not a professional athlete that has ever had one of these injuries. And regarding Lance Armstrong, I personally know of 3 bodybuilders who have had testicle cancer; maybe the wonder of modern medicine is not that he survived testicle cancer but that he was stricken with it to begin with.
Ranting and Raving for sure, but other than horse racing I have very few pleasures in life and to think that drug dealers will destroy the game and take that pleasure from me is a very sad thought indeed.
Cozzene
Smarty\'s Rebel neg 3.3 was pre lasix. I don\'t understand the concerns. He\'s fast because he\'s good. He culd get beat in the Belmont but it won\'t be because he didn\'t get juiced for that race.
The concern is how does performance enhancing drugs effect the result of a race, and how does turning a blind eye effect society.
To show no concern is to either believe that you have no control of your destiny \"it is all up to fate\" or to not care.
I cannot fathom which is less pathetic.
Get involved, do something good for your community. Coach little league baseball, be a Scout leader, take your destiny and your communities destiny in your hands. Shape young people into people of honor, integrity, and character.
Ranting and Raving, I know. But if know one cares than what does it matter, anyway.
Cozzene
Post Edited (05-22-04 19:20)
were babe ruth and mickey mantle men of character and integrity because they did not have access to performance enhancing drugs. is lance armstrong lacking in character because you think he \"must\" be using illegal drugs. it is impossible to make judgments on character(in most cases) unless you know the people involved personally. to sit back and give people advice on how they should live their lives is just silly. if everyone just worried about there own behavior it would be a good start. spots are entertainment. if you don\'t feel it is worh your money the only answer is to take your money elsewhere.
It is the best of all possible worlds. Smarty Jones runs on Hay, Oats, and Water. Athletes are heroes who should be loved and adored. All the children are above average. It is always darkest before the dawn.
Thank You
Dr. Pangloss, er I mean Cozzene
Doc, er...cozzene, lighten up! I take vitamins, and so do horses; performance enhancing for sure, but to what degree?
Besides, how dare you, or anyone else take pleasure in enslaving horses to run in circles so we can place our bets? Where does it end??
Oral sex is sex? Damn, my wife\'s gonna kill me when I fess-up...
William Jefferson er, fasteddie
If you convince a 17 year old to play adult lollipop try convincing the State Attorney that what you were doing wasn\'t sex. Also keep in mind you probably won\'t do time if you kiss her on the cheek.
Some of the evasions get a little strained. \"It wasn\'t sex, It wasn\'t a wedding party, I never said they attacked us.\"
I say if you\'re gonna do the misdeed, have enough integrity to own up to it.
Enough of that. Purge ran a helluva race Saturday, though I haven\'t reviewed the charts yet for getting a handle on the speed figure. Purge is a Pulpit and I believe the Peter Pan is the third 9 mark win by a son of Pulpit. Essence of Dubai, Tapit and now Purge. I think Purge is better than Tapit, I suppose we\'ll see.
CtC
So if you were the Trainer of Purge would you run him in the Belmont ??
Johnny V on the front end controlling the pace.
Could be another Commendable.
I think the Peter Pan was fast. The race that really impressed me was Purge\'s Rebel Stakes because I know how well Smarty ran that race. Smarty finished like the very best kind of horse and Purge was only 3.5 lengths back. They both ran great that race.
I\'m not getting in Jerry\'s business, but I think the Peter Pan looks to be a better race with the wide. I don\'t want to encourage freebies but I think you have an email relationship with Jerry and could ask him if he thinks Purge should run in the Belmont. :)
Silver:
Agree with your comment re Purge. What does the fact that he\'s NOT running tell you? Look at the connections skipping the race, Frankel, Pletcher, Violette. There isn\'t a single trainer on the Belmont backstretch that legitmately thinks Smarty can be beat.
Except Zito who I hear is looking to claim a bunch of 3YO\'s at MNR this week so he can run them in addition to Cliff\'s Edge, Birdstone, Royal Assualt, etc.
Catalin wrote:
\"Except Zito who I hear is looking to claim a bunch of 3YO\'s at MNR this week so he can run them in addition to Cliff\'s Edge, Birdstone, Royal Assualt, etc.\"
And if D Wayne Lukas was doing this......
If Lukas tossed 3 to 5 horses in the Belmont at a Triple Crown Prospect the racing world would see it for what it really was...Jealousy :)
Lukas got off the skids a bit in Kentucky. He got a bit lucky that in his down year Baffert couldn\'t come up with a horse to beat Smarty. Baffert is going to surpass Lukas before the end of this decade in all the Triple Crown Records. I think he\'ll out money him and I still think he could catch him in the Breeders Cup. That latter will be hard because Lukas had so many Juvenile Winners he broke down for the Breeders Cup.
But I now lead Lukas 6 derbies to 4 and I will increase that margin next year. I cannot be defeated in the Derby again.
:)
CtC
Will everyone please stop with PURGE. Pletcher cranked this horse for a one turn race on a track that has been heavily biased towards speed since the meet began.
Yes, the race was fast and impressive.So how does this translate into a mile and a half 2 weeks later? Pletcher should wait for the Dwyer then point to Saratoga.
When I think of PURGE\'s Peter Pan it reminds me of another impressive PP winner that crashed and burned 2 weeks later---JAMIE\'S FIRST PUNCH.
PS: Can we get Allen Jerkens to take over EDDINGTON\'s training in the next couple of days???
Good Luck,
Joe B.
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahaha
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahaha
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahaha
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahaha
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahaha
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahaha
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahaha
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahaha
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahaha
hahahahahahhahahahahahahahahhahaha
One record that Baffy will never surpasss is Lukas\' 500+ Graded Stakes wins. Lukas was the 1st trainer that had strings of horses all across North America and didn\'t waste any time sticking his horses in them. Not like Hennig and Eddington in that big alw win.
Sheets your not such a bad guy after all.
LOL.
For those of you interested a fellow TG Sharpie forwarded me a copy of an article about Lukas that is in the May Edition of the Harvard Business Review. The piece was outstanding and I highly recommend any horse racing fan to read it if they can get their hands on a copy.
There is absolutely NO BS in it.
Been wondering if Smarty Jones would be the best ever should he go on to win the big race in a couple weeks . My impression is that yes Smarty might be the best ever . Knowing what I know of Racing and Racing History (precious little) , Man O\' War and Secretariat and Smarty Jones (potentially) are all so close in abillity that it becomes difficult to seperate those horse\'s that are in that top one percent . Even when comparing each of them with and against previous and current generations of horse\'s and racing/track conditions , it still comes up pretty equall to me and , all things being equall , maybe we can look at it like the \'Big 3 . I\'m going out there to see the race and hopefully find a good bet on the undercard ... Thanks JB and everyone at Thorograph ! You guys and your followers practically are Racing , the Sport of Kings . I can never thank you enough ! Thanks
Post Edited (05-27-04 07:58)
How does the administration of LEGAL, POSSIBLY performance enhancing drugs imply lack of morality or concern for society. Have you ever taken nutritional supplements, or been prescribed modern medicine for an ailment? Does that lessen your own accomplishments? I agree that there are a lot of illegal drugs used in modern sports, be it horseracing or anything else. And I agree that it is a problem that society should be concerned with. But I do not see how Lasix diminishes Smarty\'s accomplishments nor do I see how the use of said drug is going to be the cause of the decline of western civilization, or even horseracing. I think we should embrace modern science and step out of the dark ages. As far as handicapping goes I think that it is simply another variable to take into account. And to think that prior to Lasix and the like, that all horses ate only hay, oats and water is naive.
The HBR description of the article
\"What wisdom could a horse trainer have to offer a corporate manager? Let\'s start with the fact that the word \"manage\" has an equine origin. It comes from Latin, by way of the Italian \"maneggiare\"--to handle, to train horses. To find out whether the connection goes any further than etymology, senior editor Julia Kirby interviewed the man who is perhaps the most famous thoroughbred trainer of all time: D. Wayne Lukas. Over the course of his 40-year career, Lukas has broken virtually every record in the history of the sport. He\'s had a horse in every Kentucky Derby for the past 23 years. In 14 different years, he has made more money than any other trainer in the United States; his lifetime earnings mark is now approaching an incredible $250 million. Although his accomplishments are undeniable, Lukas remains a controversial figure in his industry. Early on, he bucked long-standing traditions and came up with a training program unlike anyone else\'s. His willingness to ship horses across the country to compete in fields where they had better chances of prevailing meant more victories, happier clients, and a reputation for success that brought Lukas even better horses. One of the biggest assets a trainer can have is a good eye for selecting not just talented horses but also talented assistants. Horse training is a trial-and-error, learn-by-experience profession, and a lot of it is handed down. There aren\'t any books that demonstrate how to train a horse to win the Kentucky Derby. Lukas may be famous for holding almost every record in racing, but his ability to develop a whole new generation of great trainers may be his most important legacy.\"
I just might have to go out and find this magazine. LOL
Sheets glad to see you are coming around. Go get it you will enjoy it, share it with your girlfriend. You might get a little.......
The best and most accurate part of the article was the comment: \"The only thing I really cannot tolerate is a lack of effort....this kid (help)is wasting my time, I\'m going to send him over to Baffert\'s barn.
Chuckles when Marcus mentioned TGJB and his \"followers\" the first person I thought of was you. (Smiley that I can\'t get to insert)
Silver Charm -
I was in a library today and read the HBR article. I guess I\'ve read enough about D. Wayne over the years that not much was new to me.
I was, however, interested in the discussion of the economics of training horses. I suspect D. Wayne was poor-mouthing a bit. I can\'t believe he had to rely on stallion shares to be rolling in money during the Gene Klein years.
I wish there had been more discussion of the economics of owning horses and the client-relations/marketing aspect of being a trainer. I think that, in general, horse owners get crushed (a lot worse than the 20% takeout bettors face), and I\'m curious how trainers confront that issue.
Thanks for the recommendation.